Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11th August 2021, 05:10 PM   #1
midelburgo
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 155
Default An Eibar couple with patilla locks

I got my first two muzzle loaders, very interesting pieces, they were sleepers coming from a miniature village at the Leon mountains. Seller says they were always in the family.

I am completely inexperienced with these. They are in good condition, but unattended for 100 years.

There is rust under the barrels, but I do not know how to dismantle them at the front. After removing the tang screw nothing moves. There shall be a retainer somewhere. Lock was easy though.

Plan is, for steel, mineral oil for the active rust with a touch of 000 steel wool and then renaissance wax. For the wood linseed oil, and then bee wax plus carnauba wax in turpentine.
Attached Images
   

Last edited by midelburgo; 11th August 2021 at 05:31 PM.
midelburgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2021, 06:23 PM   #2
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 974
Default

Get out this pin and you can remove the barrel easily!
Attached Images
 
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2021, 06:26 PM   #3
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,600
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by midelburgo View Post
...There is rust under the barrels, but I do not know how to dismantle them at the front. After removing the tang screw nothing moves. There shall be a retainer somewhere...
That is no easy job; close to impractical. Before barrel fronts were held to forestocks by means of an easily dismountable iron wedge introduced in a steel 'eye' welded to the barrel underside, pins were used for the same purpose. Only that such pins are not easy to extract; you have to push them off by carefully hammering with a rod slightly thinner than the pin hole, not to damage (widen) the wooden orifice. The holding system inside is the same; only that, instead of a rectangular steel hole for the modern tab, such early one, like yours, is round, corresponding to holding pin.
... if i make myself understood.


.
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2021, 06:28 PM   #4
Fernando K
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 621
Default

Hello

It would be interesting a photograph of the punches in the barrel, to know the manufacturer. The lock is a mikelet "to the three fashions"

Affectionately
Fernando K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2021, 06:33 PM   #5
Fernando K
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 621
Default

Hello

I notice that the barrel is held by a pair of pins, marked by Corrado and Fernando
Fernando K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2021, 06:40 PM   #6
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,600
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado26 View Post
Get out this pin and you can remove the barrel easily!
So ... we are dealing with two fixation pins instead of one, as usual (per experience ).
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th August 2021, 07:48 PM   #7
midelburgo
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 155
Default

Thank you.
I was afraid I would have to deal with those pins. I will attempt on them soon.
As for the marks, each pistol is marked thrice in barrel, lock and guard.
But each by a different maker. A famous one with his mark in "Síntesis Historica" and an unknown one from a known family. I am guessing if a copy was requested or the second is an apprenticeship work. The guns differs at close view, but wood stock and steel are similar.
I have a new macro objective just on time for this task.

Now I have the collectors book, more of these toys will follow.

Last edited by midelburgo; 12th August 2021 at 12:23 PM.
midelburgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th August 2021, 06:18 AM   #8
drac2k
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 905
Default

The only thing that I can add, is to make sure that they are not loaded; you would be amazed at how many that are.
drac2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th August 2021, 07:17 AM   #9
Philip
Member
 
Philip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 963
Default Removing the pins

Taking them out requires some technique but it's not such a frightening procedure. First, find some thick sheets of rubber, or scraps of old carpeting, one should be large enough for the entire pistol, also a few smaller pieces too.
You will need a machinist's drift punch, designed for precisely this type of operation, available at many tool stores. Get one (or two, since they can bend) that are of same or smaller diameter than the pins in question. The useful thing about these tools is that they have an expanded "handle" which is easier to strike accurately with a small hammer. Much safer than using an old nail or something like that.

Locate the pins you need to remove. Look for one side that is bigger than the other end, if that is the case you need to drive out the smaller end. The difference in diameter, if it exists, will be very small. Sometimes the surrounding wood looks like removal of pins was done before during the gun's working life.

Lay the pistol on the big sheet of rug or rubber. Use the smaller pieces underneath, here and there, for added support if needed and to provide some clearance underneath the pin you want to drive out.

Now, very important, align your punch so that it is in-line with the axis of the pin. This may be a different angle from the 90-degrees to the tangent of the stock surface at the end of the pin. You must drive the pin in the same direction as it is oriented in the stock, otherwise you run the risk of slipping and marring the wood. Tap gently. Check the other side to be sure the wood grain is not raised in slivers (sometimes this is a risk if the wood is swollen by oil). If things look OK, keep tapping until the pin is out. You can pull it out from the other side if there is enough exposed pin to grab with a needle nosed pliers.

Please share pics once your cleaning operations are finished. These are an attractive and good quality pair of pistols.
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th August 2021, 11:50 AM   #10
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,600
Default

There you are, the way to remove a pin with a full technical description. Obviously things are not so smooth and easy as Philip's put them, with all his experienced expertise, although possible to carry out by a person with a minimum ability.
... contrary to my humble self, with only one (non dexterous) hand ... and no rubber sheets at hand; such exercise becomes a saga .
Last time i succeeded in removing a pin the gun, a rustic blunderbuss that was well worn, the stock wooden hole was too large from overuse, but the pin was rusty and stuck into the barrel lug.
One other time i had another worn gun missing the pin; i used a normal nail, cutting it to the necessersy length and leaving its head, to better lock on the worn woden hole. A couple minutes on the stove flames turned it dark enough to eliminate its shiny brightness.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th August 2021, 12:13 PM   #11
midelburgo
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 155
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip View Post
Taking them out requires some technique but it's not such a frightening procedure. First, find some thick sheets of rubber, or scraps of old carpeting, one should be large enough for the entire pistol, also a few smaller pieces too.
...
Thank you. I will try to follow the advice.
It all sounds like the bicycle tool to remove links from the chain. Just on a larger scale. Maybe it is worthy to build one, from a table clamp or a c-clamp.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by midelburgo; 12th August 2021 at 12:49 PM.
midelburgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th August 2021, 02:47 PM   #12
Fernando K
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 621
Default

Hello

Watch out. It usually happens that the pin has rusted, the rust has increased its diameter and is firmly fixed and the work with a punch cannot be carried out, destroying the surrounding wood in the attempt- If this happens, the only thing that remains is to destroy the pin , by means of a fuse of almost equal diameter, but be careful, the weapon must be held firmly by some artifice and the fuse must be oriented perfectly in the direction of the pin

Affectionately
Fernando K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th August 2021, 03:31 PM   #13
midelburgo
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 155
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando K View Post
Hello

Watch out. It usually happens that the pin has rusted, the rust has increased its diameter and is firmly fixed and the work with a punch cannot be carried out, destroying the surrounding wood in the attempt- If this happens, the only thing that remains is to destroy the pin , by means of a fuse of almost equal diameter, but be careful, the weapon must be held firmly by some artifice and the fuse must be oriented perfectly in the direction of the pin

Affectionately
Wood seems in remarkably solid condition. Pins do not have rusted aspect on the outside, but that does not cover inside the wood. I take for granted that half a century could have passed since the last time barrel was detached.

The makers are Gabiola (GABYOLA), of which a pistol with very similar decoration is present at Madrid National Arqueological Museum, and Orbea (ORBEA) which family members would become famous from the middle XIX century. I take that Orbea was apprentice to Gabiola (active 1791-1810).

http://ceres.mcu.es/pages/ResultSear...9&listaMuseos=[Museo%20Arqueol%F3gico%20Nacional]
midelburgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th August 2021, 04:38 PM   #14
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,600
Default

JUAN ANDRES GABIOLA, a reknown lockmaker master; has been a dinner guest in the home of famous barrel maker Juan Esteban Bustuindi in 1791.
ORBEA brothers; are these the ones that were making guns since 1840 and in 1930 changed their trade to bicyle makers ? Isn't 1840 too late to be the date or your flintlock pistol ?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th August 2021, 05:13 PM   #15
midelburgo
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 155
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando View Post
JUAN ANDRES GABIOLA, a reknown lockmaker master; has been a dinner guest in the home of famous barrel maker Juan Esteban Bustuindi in 1791.
ORBEA brothers; are these the ones that were making guns since 1840 and in 1930 changed their trade to bicyle makers ? Isn't 1840 too late to be the date or your flintlock pistol ?
There are orders by Phillip II in XVIth century to an Orbea for several thousands of arquebuses. It seems the family kept a low profile in XVII and XVIII centuries.
midelburgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th August 2021, 05:17 PM   #16
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,600
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by midelburgo View Post
There are orders by Phillip II in XVIth century to an Orbea for several thousands of arquebuses. It seems the family kept a low profile in XVII and XVIII centuries.
Yes but, your pistol; could it be from close to mid XIX century ?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th August 2021, 06:01 PM   #17
midelburgo
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 155
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando View Post
Yes but, your pistol; could it be from close to mid XIX century ?
If the Orbea pistol was ordered then as a copy of the Gabiola pistol, I guess yes. But their wood look like coming from the same piece and all the metals have the same tone and pateen. The Orbea pistol looks like a copy of the Gabiola in general terms, but not made with a caliper, that probably would have been used by somebody in the middle of XIXth century. I expect more info on this older Orbea will be available if the weapons museum at Eibar is aproached.

Pictures will not be perfect to discern this.

UPDATE. This is for the Orbea pistol.
Both pins came out fine. The barrel resisted still a bit but was dislodged. It has active rust but no seriously bad pitting in about 20%, mostly at the back, under the tang and at the sides. Somebody used badly an unprotected vise. About 80% of the hidden barrel is blued, I suppose all the barrel used to be like that once.
Looking through the barrel it is not charged, but there is something looking like molten tin at the bottom. The firing hole has something like a conus at the inside (?).

I noticed that the Orbea mark at the guard has an extra M, so this is M Orbea. The founders of the company in 1859 were Juan Manuel, Mateo and Casimiro Orbea.

Now the barrel had a first round of mineral oil and 000 steel wool, and I am searching for a brass scratcher. I treated the wood with a piretrin loaded solvent (Prevalien) that was good to remove rust too, and dries in a minute and now it has been covered in linseed oil. Probably I will put everything together back in a couple of weeks.

I made pictures but they are huge and I will have to adapt them to the forum. Surprisingly they go in. I did not use an stative.
Attached Images
   

Last edited by midelburgo; 12th August 2021 at 09:08 PM.
midelburgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th August 2021, 08:55 PM   #18
midelburgo
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 155
Default

They do not load anymore (?)
midelburgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th August 2021, 09:06 PM   #19
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,600
Default

They are in the inverted position. If it is too late for you to edit them, i can put them right ... if you wish .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th August 2021, 09:15 PM   #20
midelburgo
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 155
Default

It does not allow me to load anymore! I was surprised when it took those three.

Sorry. I will not be available for a couple of weeks.

Last edited by midelburgo; 13th August 2021 at 08:40 AM.
midelburgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th August 2021, 09:18 PM   #21
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,600
Default

Can't you resize them (maximum 1280X1280) before uploading ?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.