Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 28th September 2022, 12:36 PM   #1
Merenti
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Germany
Posts: 31
Default Saxon Arms

Does anyone here still collect or own Saxon edged weapons? I'm trying to catalog the pommel species right now. There are hexagonal, octagonal, round and pommels with lines.

I'm always looking for Saxon Arms
Attached Images
    
Merenti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th September 2022, 09:10 PM   #2
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,009
Default

Interesting question, not sure which specific Saxon classification, which edged weapons, which period and regions, but I'm sure most of these categories are still collected. Do you mean German swords in general, or only those associated with Saxony?
Interesting approach to categorizations focused on pommel types, much as in AVB Norman's "The Rapier and Smallsword".
I am always curious on the proper descriptive terms used for all the various geometric shapes.

Norman avoided adding blades into his classifications of sword hilts (1400-1821) because they were typically either trade blades, or exchanged on hilts in refurbishing of swords. Mostly the classifications were focused toward the period of the hilt styles, and this same system was used with the categories of pommels. Curiously I do not recall a 'Saxon' classification specified in either.

Can you add any details on the swords you have illustrated?

Last edited by Jim McDougall; 28th September 2022 at 09:20 PM.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th September 2022, 10:26 PM   #3
werecow
Member
 
werecow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Leiden, NL
Posts: 166
Default

Have you checked Forrer's "European Sword Pommels"? I'm not sure if there are any Saxon ones in there, but it's got pommels up the wazoo.
werecow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th September 2022, 10:47 PM   #4
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,009
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by werecow View Post
Have you checked Forrer's "European Sword Pommels"? I'm not sure if there are any Saxon ones in there, but it's got pommels up the wazoo.
Theres a book just on sword pommels?
As pommels were often acquired by cutlers and armorers who assembled swords from individual vendors it seems like it would be hard to distinguish specific origin. Also swords being refurbished often ended up with pommels from other sources. I have had for example British pattern military swords with pommels that may have been much earlier than the type they were now on.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th September 2022, 11:03 PM   #5
werecow
Member
 
werecow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Leiden, NL
Posts: 166
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
Theres a book just on sword pommels?
Indeed. And just the European ones, too! Might be the most niche book I own. "Book" may give the wrong impression, though. It's basically a large collections of images of pommels and a few swords, with some notes for each plate. Back cover says there's 680 "swords and sword pommels" described and depicted. I bought it mainly to get better acquainted with renaissance pommels.
werecow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2022, 12:58 AM   #6
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,009
Default

I think I found which reference you mean. I was going through Norman (1980) looking through the pommels chapter for anything described as Saxon, as well as indexes but found nothing with that specific designation.
I found the book "Die Schwerter und Schwertknaufe der Sammlung Carl van Schwerzbac-Bregenz" by Dr. R.Forrers, Leipzig, 1905.

E. Oakeshott "The Sword in the Age of Chivalry" (1964) is also mentioned in which the various types of sword pommels he lists in his alphabetically categorized typology of them is pretty thoroughly represented. I found no mention however of any specified as Saxon.

It seems I have seen the term Saxon used on occasion on examples in auctions etc. but cannot recall specifics. I have seen the term often used for military swords of the state of Saxony origins. Searching online mostly the term is used for numerous reproduction models from well known producers.
Looking forward to examples of swords of antiquity described as Saxon from references. We never stop learning
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2022, 02:15 AM   #7
werecow
Member
 
werecow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Leiden, NL
Posts: 166
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
I think I found which reference you mean. I was going through Norman (1980) looking through the pommels chapter for anything described as Saxon, as well as indexes but found nothing with that specific designation.
I found the book "Die Schwerter und Schwertknaufe der Sammlung Carl van Schwerzbac-Bregenz" by Dr. R.Forrers, Leipzig, 1905.
Yeah, European Sword Pommels is the English translation it seems:
Attached Images
 

Last edited by fernando; 29th September 2022 at 10:48 AM. Reason: Att. to forum rules. No pictures linked to exterior hosts allowed. Use forum upload features.
werecow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2022, 03:11 AM   #8
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,009
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by werecow View Post
Yeah, European Sword Pommels is the English translation it seems:

Thank you so much for the heads up on this book! Looks pretty essential for sword study that would greatly accompany these others. Sounds like it would be valuable for Merenti in his research as well.



.

Last edited by fernando; 29th September 2022 at 10:46 AM.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2022, 08:39 AM   #9
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,066
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
Do you mean German swords in general, or only those associated with Saxony?
I think he is looking for swords and other weapons made in or made for the electorate of Saxony
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th September 2022, 06:13 PM   #10
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,009
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado26 View Post
I think he is looking for swords and other weapons made in or made for the electorate of Saxony
Again, this is most interesting, and while it seems over years on occasion I have seen swords identified as "Saxon' but simply regarded it as as a term of heightened specificity over the more general 'German' classification.

I have always recognized the axiom, 'weapon forms have no geographic boundaries' . Obviously certain forms had preferences in certain local regions and were preponderant in them, but was there some distinct characteristic that would signify a sword was specifically from the defined Saxon area?
Clearly there have been notable geopolitical changes in this state over many centuries, so that further begs the question, what defines a Saxon sword?

In the more recent centuries of course, military swords would have cyphers, inscriptions, coats of arms which specified Saxony, but with images of edged weapons without such identifying elements, what in the images in the OP signifies that these are 'Saxon'.

The serpent on the ricasso in the second image is of course associated with Milan and used by makers variously in that context.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Jim McDougall; 29th September 2022 at 06:23 PM.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th September 2022, 12:26 AM   #11
Merenti
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Germany
Posts: 31
Default

Thank you for your many responses. I really should have been more specific, I'm really concerned with the Saxon rapiers, daggers and estoc made for the Elector and for the Trabant Guard
Merenti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th September 2022, 12:28 AM   #12
Merenti
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Germany
Posts: 31
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
Again, this is most interesting, and while it seems over years on occasion I have seen swords identified as "Saxon' but simply regarded it as as a term of heightened specificity over the more general 'German' classification.

I have always recognized the axiom, 'weapon forms have no geographic boundaries' . Obviously certain forms had preferences in certain local regions and were preponderant in them, but was there some distinct characteristic that would signify a sword was specifically from the defined Saxon area?
Clearly there have been notable geopolitical changes in this state over many centuries, so that further begs the question, what defines a Saxon sword?

In the more recent centuries of course, military swords would have cyphers, inscriptions, coats of arms which specified Saxony, but with images of edged weapons without such identifying elements, what in the images in the OP signifies that these are 'Saxon'.

The serpent on the ricasso in the second image is of course associated with Milan and used by makers variously in that context.
very well worded


the Reformation gave Saxony a very high status. I'll try to share what I know so far this weekend.
Merenti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th September 2022, 12:57 PM   #13
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,066
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
The serpent on the ricasso in the second image is of course associated with Milan and used by makers variously in that context.
It is interesting to know that the nearly same snake-mark is the sign of the DANNER-family at Nürnberg
Attached Images
 
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th September 2022, 05:29 PM   #14
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,009
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado26 View Post
It is interesting to know that the nearly same snake-mark is the sign of the DANNER-family at Nürnberg
Good catch Udo!!!
What reference is this!? I must have it it surely leaves the standard compendiums in the dust.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th September 2022, 05:31 PM   #15
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,009
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merenti View Post
very well worded


the Reformation gave Saxony a very high status. I'll try to share what I know so far this weekend.
Thank you so much Merenti. Looking forward to hearing more on your insights from your research, and very pertinent topic.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2022, 09:10 AM   #16
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,066
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
Good catch Udo!!!
What reference is this!? I must have it it surely leaves the standard compendiums in the dust.
Eugen Heer, Der Neue Stoeckel, Schwäbisch Hall 1978, 3 volumes, 2280 pages, this opus is a MUST!!!
Attached Images
  
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st October 2022, 05:24 PM   #17
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,009
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado26 View Post
Eugen Heer, Der Neue Stoeckel, Schwäbisch Hall 1978, 3 volumes, 2280 pages, this opus is a MUST!!!
Thank you Udo
Sounds pretty obscure and expensive.........the search begins. Your endorsement is motivating, so as Holmes would say, "the games afoot!".
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2022, 09:04 PM   #18
Merenti
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Germany
Posts: 31
Default

1.0

I try to give my opinion a little free rein here, I also listen to your opinions. I'm happy to accept additions and try to incorporate them. Of course, I will also name sources.


I would like to start with what I think is the simplest variant

The Saxon estoc with a simple eight-sided pommel and lines. Carried as a secondary weapon on horseback. In the version shown, probably for simple court servants on horseback.

The version with different blades (triangular and square) and usually provided with the Pi brand. There were leather sleeves and metal sleeves for the transition from scabbard to blade.

A chronological classification is difficult, but I assume 1590-1600.


Sidenotes:

1. The mounted contingent of the Saxon Trebanten guard was formed of a company of one hundred men on black horses.

2.Their uniform included a blackened comb morion (a type of open helmet used from the middle 16th to early 17th centuries) with etched and gilt ornament, black doublets and yellow hose and stockings, the colours being those of the Arms of the Electors of Saxony.

Source: Copyright © 2016 Peter Finer
Attached Images
     
Merenti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2022, 02:16 PM   #19
Merenti
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: Germany
Posts: 31
Default

1.1

2 estocs with triangular blades and the same pommel. From the Rüstkammer collection in Dresden.
Attached Images
 
Merenti is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.