Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 22nd March 2023, 08:20 AM   #121
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

Benedek Borsó of Cserneki 1613. Inscription: "16: 13 G. I. M. T. Benedictus Borso de Cernek (manu) p(ro)p(ri)a. Kegyelmed atyafya et baratya minden korr. Genade dir Gott." https://hu.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Fájl...nedek_képe.jpg
Attached Images
 
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2023, 08:31 AM   #122
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

King Rudolf of Hungary 1577-1582.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...zis/adatlap/57
Attached Images
 
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2023, 08:40 AM   #123
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

King Rudolf of Hungary => Mihály Kovács of Dicske | renewal of coat of arms. This dude's fighting a lion. He is very western in outfit.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/7363
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/1351
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/1343
Attached Images
 
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2023, 08:46 AM   #124
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

King Rudolph of Hungary => Mátyás Terczák of Drasty, castle lord of Gradec castle | renewal of coat of arms 1579
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/7345
Attached Images
 
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2023, 08:52 AM   #125
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

King Ferdinand I of Hungary => Márton Balázsdeák | coat of arms, Hungarian nobility 1563.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/2622
Attached Images
 
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2023, 09:08 AM   #126
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

King Rudolph of Hungary => István Pap of Miskolc | coat of arms, Hungarian nobility 1582. Good details on the sword hilt.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/7700

All these S-quillons and 8-quillons on Hungarian koncerz and pallash, remind me of other earlier Hungarian swords with similar guards . This thread is full of them. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=20
Attached Images
 
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2023, 09:25 AM   #127
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

Here is an example of why basing ourselves on these depictions in coats of arms / CoA. This one from 1582 has a man in typical Hungarian fashion, but with a knightly sword. It could be a pallash with a pommel, it could be e Germanic sword. We don't know for sure. This CoA may be old enough to depict weapons from an earlier period, and was inherited unchanged. To make things worse, Hungary, Wallachia, Moldova, Poland-Lithuania etc. were a mix of East and West, so both are probable.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/7742
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Teisani; 23rd March 2023 at 05:46 AM.
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2023, 09:54 AM   #128
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victrix View Post
Note silk knots through specially dedicated holes in the sword grips.
Yes, in my opinion a very "Ottoman" trait. It shows that early 16th century Kingdom of Hungary troops still had some basically identical kit to Ottoman troops. Note, I use Ottoman for simplicity. Check out these "wounded Uzbek prisoner" themed artworks. Notice the sword-knots, very faint unfortunately. Some are hanging on the cross-guard to stop them from flopping around. All have banana-hilts
https://www.flickr.com/photos/persia...ng/36136461795
https://artgallery.yale.edu/collections/objects/91394
Attached Images
     
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2023, 10:33 AM   #129
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

At some point the Ottoman cavalry started to adopt the koncerz. And Ottoman miniatures can provide a wealth of knowledge.
http://warfare.tk/Ottoman/Suleymanname/Suleymanname.htm
Here is an illustrations from the Süleymanname 1558 showing Ottoman Deli Sinan fighting against the Hungarian Eugene at the battle of Mohacs 1526. Notice the koncerz under the deli's left thigh.
Name:  20230322_112411.jpg
Views: 1721
Size:  781.3 KB

Another one from the same source shows a duel. Both combatants are equipped with koncerz' under their thighs.
Name:  20230322_112338.jpg
Views: 1724
Size:  930.2 KB

In both instances, the Ottoman's koncerz has an "8-guard".
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2023, 10:44 AM   #130
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

More details from thos one. Note, I think that 1572 is the correct date. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...&postcount=105
Attached Images
  
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2023, 10:57 AM   #131
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

King Ferdinand I of Hungary => Nehóczy Boldizsár noble, Bálint Nehóczy noble | renewal of coat of arms 1560. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/7283
Attached Images
 
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2023, 11:02 AM   #132
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

Helmets aren't perfect. János II elected Hungarian king => András Kotecz of Sajó | coat of arms 1560.
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/1310
Attached Images
 
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2023, 01:03 PM   #133
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

Member of the elite "rabbit hussars" atop his powerful goat. Year of such calamity, 1582. Armed with lance and wide cross-guard sabre, king Bathory would have been proud to command such destructive potential. Just imagine David Attenborough's voice while reading this .
https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/7465
Attached Images
 
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2023, 02:16 PM   #134
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

King Rudolph of Hungary => Ferenc Győry | coat of arms, 1604. Horse with koncerz. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/1006
Attached Images
 
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2023, 02:37 PM   #135
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

István Bocskai, Hungarian and Transylvanian prince => Miklós Segnyey of Lapispataki, captain of Kassa | coat of arms, 1606. Cavalry fight scenes with winged hussars. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/5452
Attached Images
 
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2023, 03:26 PM   #136
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

Báthory Gábor grants CoA in 1613. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...is/adatlap/199
Báthory Gábor grants CoA in 1608. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/6972
Similar hilt to this http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...0&postcount=63
Attached Images
  
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd March 2023, 05:47 PM   #137
Reventlov
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 132
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teisani View Post
King of Hungary, Ulászló, Buda 1515. https://adatbazisokonline.mnl.gov.hu...s/adatlap/7197
Name:  20230320_132057.jpg
Views: 2683
Size:  747.0 KB

Hard to make out the details, but perhaps this shows the classic "Hungarian" S-shaped guard which we know from mostly older swords and sabers, as seen here and here.

Name:  Giovanni_di_Bartolomeo_d’Aquila.jpg
Views: 1531
Size:  340.7 KB

Another example of the 1470s is in Austria, but the artist Hans Siebenbürger was evidently a Transylvanian Saxon, the land of "Seven Castles" (German: Siebenbürgen).

Name:  Hans Siebenbürger, St. Barbara (c. 1470s).jpg
Views: 1509
Size:  383.0 KB
Reventlov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd March 2023, 06:10 PM   #138
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reventlov View Post
Attachment 225534
Hard to make out the details, but perhaps this shows the classic "Hungarian" S-shaped guard which we know from mostly older swords and sabers...
In my opinion, it's more likely to represent an Ottoman style sabre. You can see the angled end-cap like on these sabres.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...4&postcount=26
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=64
And the cross-guard looks like this one.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...4&postcount=24
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2023, 12:08 AM   #139
awdaniec666
Member
 
awdaniec666's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Northern Germany
Posts: 147
Default

Now that we have seen lots of s-guards and banana-hilts, it would be a great time to dig up those depictions of Tatar sabers or other under-represented forms (Ordynka, Czeczuga, Ormianka etc.).
Hopefully I can also come up with some paintings including the Polish knuckle-bow saber in the future (Mr. Z´s Class I which I have mentioned very briefly in the Karabela Guide).
awdaniec666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2023, 07:56 AM   #140
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

THE ADORATION OF THE MAGI. About 1514. St. Paul and Peter's Catholic Church, Dryswiaty, Braslau district, Vitebsk region. The main painting might be from 1514, but in my opinion the inserted image of the hussar is a later addition, due to the stylistic difference between the two images. So unfortunately I don't think it can provide much info.
Hmmm... maybe the coat of arms next can be of some use in dating the hussar depiction.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...90;ы.jpg
Name:  20230326_094336.jpg
Views: 1693
Size:  374.4 KB
Name:  20230326_094412.jpg
Views: 1514
Size:  235.3 KB

He doesn't very different to the figures in the "Tablica gołuchowska" from circa 1620. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...2;uchowska.jpg. Note: the example on the Wikipedia page seems to be a reproduction. I believe this one to be the original.
Name:  573572_original.jpg
Views: 1465
Size:  301.9 KB

Last edited by Teisani; 26th March 2023 at 09:23 AM.
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th March 2023, 09:45 AM   #141
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

This site looks like a nice source for some depictions. https://17c.org.ua/dzherela

The embassy of Bohdan Khmelnytskyi to Janusz Radziwill in 1651. Abraham van Westerfeld. They look like tatar sabres
Attached Images
 
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2023, 09:46 AM   #142
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

Here's something that caught my eye. While browsing the pictures in the site mentioned above, this "fragment of a painting of the palace in Kielce (Poland) in the 1630s" had two hussars, who appear to be wearing sabres with typical boot-hilt, and cross-guard with side-ring. It's not the best clarity, so the side-ring aspect is debatable.
Name:  20230328_114019.jpg
Views: 1475
Size:  242.4 KBName:  20230328_114515.jpg
Views: 1458
Size:  221.9 KB

Then I remembered that I had seen a sabre with a side-ring before... in this depiction of Nikola Zrinski (Ban of Croatia 1647-1664) from the Klebebände (Band 2) by Jacob von Sandrart (publisher) 17th century. At first I thought it was a fantasy design, but now I must reconsider my verdict.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...and_02_337.jpg
Name:  Arolsen_Klebeband_02_337.jpg
Views: 1354
Size:  349.8 KB
Name:  20230328_104233.jpg
Views: 1426
Size:  379.2 KB
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2023, 10:21 AM   #143
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

Add to this, the fact that in the Stockholm Roll from 1605 we have some Polish infantryman carrying what appear to be sabres with knuckle-bows and side-rings. They could be dusägge/dussack type sabres, but usually these have more complex hilts and pommels. So, any opinions?
Attached Images
   
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th March 2023, 03:23 PM   #144
awdaniec666
Member
 
awdaniec666's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Northern Germany
Posts: 147
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teisani View Post
So, any opinions?
This could be the early Lithuanian modification of Hungarian sabers. Lithuanians seem to have preferred more protective guards. There are plenty of examples from around 1700. These here could be predecessors. This is just a guess for now.
awdaniec666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th June 2023, 02:55 PM   #145
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

Patrick, I would like to comment a bit on a picture in karabela section of your document on page 1. The picture is from "Turnierbuch von Erzherzog Ferdinand II. Fol. 167, Austria after 1557, Kunstkammer Inv.-Nr. 5134. On closer inspection, I don't think de depiction is of a karabela-hilted sabre, rather a banana-hilt. I've attached it, and a few more photos from it. https://www.facebook.com/Wissenswert...Epochen/photos
Name:  Kunsthistorisches Museum Kunstkammer 5134 p167.png
Views: 1086
Size:  703.7 KB
Name:  Ferdinand II turnierbuch.jpg
Views: 1056
Size:  335.7 KB
Name:  Huszártornához_felvonuló_lovag_fegyverhordozójával.png
Views: 1044
Size:  1.21 MB
Name:  csm_KK_5134_71_21ef1bcba9.jpg
Views: 981
Size:  103.8 KB
Name:  csm_KK_5134_170_72d6b63682.jpg
Views: 951
Size:  81.2 KB

And from Hochzeitskodex Erzherzog Ferdinands II.: Ferdinand und Wilhelm 1582. Künstler/in: Sigmund Elsässer
Name:  Hochzeitskodex Erzherzog Ferdinands II 1582 2.jpg
Views: 946
Size:  319.6 KBName:  Hochzeitskodex Erzherzog Ferdinands II 1582.jpg
Views: 963
Size:  287.8 KB

Last edited by fernando; 22nd June 2023 at 12:33 PM.
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st June 2023, 05:52 PM   #146
awdaniec666
Member
 
awdaniec666's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Northern Germany
Posts: 147
Default

Teisani,
hm.., with respect to the quality of the paintings I think we can interpret the hilts as they are shown to us and that hilt is clearly shaped like an eagle-head.
Attached Images
 
awdaniec666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th August 2023, 03:13 PM   #147
awdaniec666
Member
 
awdaniec666's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Northern Germany
Posts: 147
Default

Some more depictions I found recently.

1. Hieronim Radziwill in his hussarish wedding dress, Poland-Lithuania - anno 1764
2. Stanislaw Herakliusz Lubomirski, Poland-Lithuania - 2nd half of the 17th century (note the scabbard of the Karabela -clearly a battle type- beeing decorated in red instead of black, in contrast to some authors who claim these were only encased with black leather. It´s also interesting that the hilt is probably made of wood or horn despite the rank of the bearer, which is an argument against claims that simple hilts were used solely by the lower class nobles who could not afford lavishly decorated hilts. The Lubomirski family was one of the richest in Europe at that time.)
Attached Images
  

Last edited by awdaniec666; 12th August 2023 at 03:23 PM. Reason: history background to Lubomirski´s sabre
awdaniec666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th August 2023, 11:24 AM   #148
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

1 - Thököly Imre from Transylvania, born 1657 - died 1705. Karabela hilt sabre. Chevrons on the hilt are visible.
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ump-to-license
Name:  Thokolyi.jpg
Views: 933
Size:  72.2 KB

2- Pálffy Miklós 1552–1600 from Transylvania. I'm unsure if this portret was made much after his death, it's from Klebeband Nr. 1. I believe we should be careful with these portrets, since some could be later copies of lost originals, and could contain elements from later periods. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki...ump-to-license
Name:  Arolsen_Klebeband_01_440.jpg
Views: 930
Size:  678.3 KB
At his side there is a typical boot-hilted sabre. In the lower left corner two sabres which look like karabela hilt, however they also seen reminescent of german hunting-sword hilts, like these here. They lack the languette on the side of the guard, but it's pretty common for period depictions to omit this detail. Opinions?
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2023, 05:39 PM   #149
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

3 Styrian sabre blades + crossguards, mace, hussar helmet and lammelar breastplate remnants found in the tomb possibly of Bathory Ferecz (died 1597-1602) or Elek Bathory (died 1587) in Pericei, Sălaj county, Romania 2021, by a team from the Muzeul Judeţean de Istorie şi Artă Zalău.

One the x-ray picture looks like a pallash with a triple fullered, double edged blade.

https://maszol.ro/belfold/Tizenhatod...agyperecsenben
https://www.agerpres.ro/cultura/2023...ricei--1176447
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Exijdoh1TVI
https://muzeuzalau.ro/rezultate-starea-actuala/
Attached Images
         

Last edited by Teisani; 20th October 2023 at 07:26 PM.
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2023, 08:38 AM   #150
Teisani
Member
 
Teisani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: Romania
Posts: 314
Default

Clearest pictures I've managed to find so far.
https://www.nuremberg.museum/project...-relief-plates
Attached Images
    
Teisani is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
hungary, ottoman, saber poland

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:52 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.