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Old 3rd February 2023, 08:22 PM   #61
urbanspaceman
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Default Tullie House

That is an excellent article Jim, I can see why it intrigued you. Accurate too.
Peter and I should visit the museum.
The man at the center of Reiver lore is Brian Moffat who I introduced Peter too.
He's up in Howick (pronounced howk) and what he doesn't know about the Reivers is not worth knowing.
He and his family have been battling for decades (he's a retired Copper) to establish a museum dedicated to the Reivers... we can't wait to visit.
As some of you are now aware I am of Graham descent and maybe proud of it.
Our troublesome rivals were the Armstrongs and the Robsons and remain so to this day.
Feuding is global of course.
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Old 3rd February 2023, 08:23 PM   #62
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Sir Walter Scott!!!
Don't believe a word.
He never let the truth spoil a good story.
He had a hell of a bonnie house as a result.
Images follow.

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Old 3rd February 2023, 08:52 PM   #63
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Default Abbotsford

Snap shots of Sir Walter Scott's house.
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Old 4th February 2023, 03:36 PM   #64
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Secrecy, subterfuge and spin doctoring were part of the Tudor program as well as being employed later ... People vanished and executions took place all over the shop... The big names in the lying game were those with a close connection to the rulers and Sir Walter Scott was certainly up there with the best of them..even though he didnt appear for a few hundred years after the event he is creditted with actually inventing the name of the wars... The Wars of the Roses... The biggest spin doctor in Tudor times was William Shakespeare who had carte blanche to write anything he liked (or rather, the Tudors liked) . This we now call "propaganda".

For utter and total lies and myths simply look at The Wars of The Roses which were largely inventions of the various muddle of lies where one side having run out of arrows took to throwing black puddings at the enemy whilst the others replied it is said by pelting them back with Yorkshire puddings. Much poisoned ink flowed through other exponents of this technique and Richard 111 falls into that category.

Here is a great video presentation on this very subject.. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08bs0hn The Title is revealing .. The Biggest Fibs in British History. And among that lot are the many lies and twists of the Border Riever story during which many people were hung or had their heads removed on the block or were simply drowned...often based on heresay or lies or complex stories passed by laws but often without trial...I believe this resulted in a complete erosion of trust in the Borders and locked the doors on the idea of these warriors ever becoming part of the ORBAT in The English Cavalry.

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Old 25th September 2023, 08:56 PM   #65
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Default Why didnt The Whitecoats get absorbed into The English Cavalry.

Some detail on the Marquis of Newcastle... thus a better understanding of what happened to the idea of Border Rievers and their potential as English Cavalry...

From The Web...William Cavendish
William Cavendish, Marquis of Newcastle, 1593-1676. Cultured aristocrat who became commander of Royalist forces in the north of England during 1642-4. He lost heart and went into exile after his defeat at Marston Moor.

At Marsden Moor in 1644 the Duke of Newcastle .. William Cavendish fielded about 2000 to 3000 soldiers... mainly dismounted infantry who were essentaially wiped out by a Scotish surge ... It is interesting to note that Sir Walter Scott Two Centuries later spoke of the Royalist contingent of The Marquis of Newcastle (The Whitecoats) were somehow absorbed into the English Cavalry and that at some point Queen Elizabeth 1 may have been impressed by their cavalry skills and they were the finest horsemen in Europe Etc Etc...

The Duke of Newcstle as preferring to die rather than surrender whereas that may not be quite how or why it happened because the attack on the Whitecoats was done by a group who were not only made up of Scottish soldiers but a large contingent of men from Sunderland.

On the map Sunderland and Newcastle are quite close however they didnt get on well...In fact they hated each other and indeed the Sunderland contingent were Covenanters... So not only were the Whitecoats outnumbered and on foot... but they faced an enemy which despised them greatly.

So it was that a long time after the battle In the 19th C. Sir Walter Scott wrote that detail ... in his self appointed role as latter day Tudor spin doctor ...See above detail in bold letters... Simply not true.


What seems to further confuse matters is that The leader of the Whitecoats then ran away to Europe and though he did return later he had no part in reorganising the Whitecoats ... He had in fact been an excellent trainer and exponent of Cavalry and Equestrian expertise but was not further involved in Cavalry doctrine or training. In fact another serious blow to English Cavalry selection was the fact that although there were Border Rievers who had been involved in European wars as members of English contingents ..that once these had reurned home they were demobbed immediately and thus took no further part in the story. The build up and aftermath of Culloden and the persecution of Border Rievers ...It was illegal to have a Galloway horse and Borderers could be executed even on suspicion of being a Riever...without trial...further diminished the chances of them being somehow included in the English Cavalry Orbat...It never happened.

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Old 29th September 2023, 08:27 PM   #66
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I read a good report on the English Civil Wars at https://www.worldhistory.org/article...sh-civil-wars/

I note the English Cavalry information...however that the detail and reasoning for following up the potential use of Border Riever cavalry is basically absent following the 1644 Battle Of Marsden Moor. After this it appears that history is absorbed into the thick fog of subterfuge and myth...taking with it a failure to use the Border Riever expertise using the sturdy Galloway Horses or to incorporate these and their tough Border Rievers into English Cavalry Orbat.

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Old 29th September 2023, 09:20 PM   #67
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Hi Peter. That is a good article: five minutes reading and I learned all about militia ranks and file. Thank-you.
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Old 29th September 2023, 09:59 PM   #68
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Hello Kieth, I dug up another great reference at https://archive.org/details/lifewill...p?view=theater covering the life of William Cavendish the Marquis of Newcastle which ties together his part in the Battle of Marsdon Moor as well as his distinction in raising several thousand mounted infantry known as The Whitecoats... ]

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Old 3rd October 2023, 12:49 PM   #69
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Default Cavendish

A wonderful dissertation; thanks Peter.
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Old 5th October 2023, 03:50 AM   #70
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Default Another Border Reivers Map.

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Old 29th October 2023, 12:03 AM   #71
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Default The Whinjer

Attachment 231313Just sweeping back through the thread I noted references to Whinjer at 37,38 and 39...and just picked up a picture of what seems to be a Whinjer ...A curved sword often worn by Border Reivers. There arent a lot of these about...I suppose variations on a theme would include Sinclair or Storta etc?
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Old 29th October 2023, 11:45 AM   #72
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Hi Peter. Is this not a Hounslow Hanger.
Did it evolve from 16th C. Cavalry swords perhaps?
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Old 29th October 2023, 02:36 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanspaceman View Post
Hi Peter. Is this not a Hounslow Hanger.
Did it evolve from 16th C. Cavalry swords perhaps?
Hello Keith, Some say that Whinjer is a corruption of the word Hanger. I suppose it could be a Hanger although in the case of the user..The Border Reiver would rename ...and often remake/ remodel weaponry as were available This would include reforming agricultural tools, axes and all manner of readily available blades although some ...such as their Officers or those with money could afford expensive items such as pistols....and expensive swords etc. I am sure those Reivers that went off to fight in European wars would have brought back many weapons from there.

Regards, Peter.
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Old 31st October 2023, 02:01 PM   #74
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Default Hounslow Hangar

Actually, the blade on the above is longer than was typical of Hounslow hangars but the hilt is absolutely typical.
I've never considered where that style of hilt came from, despite it being quite unique to my inexperienced eye.
If the sword you posted does, in fact, date from the 1500s, then we have a line of development that is well worth exploring.
If you are there Jim, perhaps you can shed some light here as well.
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Old 31st October 2023, 02:17 PM   #75
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This stimulates another related issue regarding what I always considered a Hounslow hangar that has ANNO 1553 on both sides of the blade (see attached).
This figure relates to the date of our briefest reigning monarch: Lady Jane, just 16 years old when she inherited the throne, reigning for only 9 days before being executed within the year.
I thought the style of sword and blade was typical of Hounslow and the numbers on the blade talismanic (although the word ANNO does rather contradict that) but perhaps this is not the case... any input here would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 31st October 2023, 02:41 PM   #76
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Red face A guess ...

I would say definitely not talismanic nor cabalistic. It might not necessarily be the date the blade was forged, but most certainly a tribute to the ephemeral Queen.
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Old 31st October 2023, 04:02 PM   #77
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Default Hangar

Hello Fernando.
Thank-you, yes, we are in agreement.
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Old 1st November 2023, 02:18 AM   #78
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Im late in on this, but most interesting. The 'whinger' term is as suggested a variation of the 'hanger' term if have understood most references, with terms for these types of swords sometimes being 'cutlass' as well.

The type swords with these distinct style hilts with pommel cap, a downturned counter guard, knuckleguard etc seem to have been an English form of 1640s, perhaps slightly earlier and used well through the century. Some references have classified somewhat later examples (Hounslow effectively ended around mid 17thc) as of 'Hounslow school'.

This is my example, it is noted that Hounslow often produced these with serrated back edge for maritime use...note the distal third of the blade resembles the other blade posted (Peter, your #71), also slightly wider. ..also the familiar 'running wolf' suggesting numbers of blades indeed were coming in from Solingen.
The story of the German smiths who came to England at the beckon of the King used the running wolf spitefully toward their Solingen guilds, but it seems not the case, and many of them signed their blades with Anglicized names.

With the ANNO 1553, this numeric combination does not seem to correspond to the talismanic combinations typically known, and the 'anno' term, as noted would defeat such suggestion. However with the Solingen running wolf, and upside down in the proper Solingen convention, this seems likely another spurious Solingen combination, and not surprising to be seen in Hounslow context.
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Old 1st November 2023, 11:25 AM   #79
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Default Hilt

I think I should start another thread regarding the history of this distinctive and unique hilt as we are moving away from the Border Reivers.
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Old 1st November 2023, 01:29 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Hudson View Post
Hello Keith, Some say that Whinjer is a corruption of the word Hanger. I suppose it could be a Hanger although in the case of the user..The Border Reiver would rename ...and often remake/ remodel weaponry as were available This would include reforming agricultural tools, axes and all manner of readily available blades although some ...such as their Officers or those with money could afford expensive items such as pistols....and expensive swords etc. I am sure those Reivers that went off to fight in European wars would have brought back many weapons from there.

Regards, Peter.
I think the idea to move the Hounslow topic to its own thread was a great idea Keith, as that deserves more specific research and discussion. As Peter has noted here, the 'Reivers' context seems to have included a good number of innovative armorers who repurposed and fashioned various arms for use. As noted, the weaponry of 'foreign ' origins likely not only were brought back as whole, but influences and components formed the basis for many Reiver weapons.
As with most armies of these times, the groups comprising the Reiver entity were of a notable range of means, and would be armed accordingly.
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Old 1st November 2023, 03:55 PM   #81
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Default The Ulster Reivers.

I must place this video expertly done to illustrate how Border Reivers spread across the landscape in Ulster ... A brilliant video in my view.

please see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx5LKbRjSG8

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Old 3rd November 2023, 11:58 AM   #82
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In hopes of keeping this valuable thread going, before continuing writing I went back to read through the content, and realize even more how fascinating this relatively obscure history of Great Britain really is!

To reiterate the identity and character of the 'riding' families, the term rider I think comes from the German 'reiter' (=horseman) and with the Reivers mounted on their maneuverable and hearty ponies, they were incredibly formidable in their raiding (the term reive =raiding).

Reading through the captivating pages of "The Reivers" by Alistair Moffat, 2008, the content literally grabs you as the book is laid out in text with blocked references to key descriptions rather than footnotes or tedious paragraphs.

For example, notes on the long leather, metal studded coats that served as armor, and called 'jack'.......I found that when cut down for mounted wear, it became a 'jacket'. There are countless bits of this kind of information revealing how much of the colorful and intriguing language, terms, nicknames etc came from the culture of these people.

In recent discussions, there has been focus on the swords used by the Reivers, and it is noted that these men had a most 'cosmopolitan' taste in weaponry, certainly from forays into foreign campaigns as mercenaries.
Moffat notes that weapons from Germany and Italy were indeed 'imported' or brought back, and that local armorers often made their own versions of these as well as various armor items etc.

Most often seen were the types of basket style hilts from North Europe known as dusagge or Sinclair which also were influencing English basket hilts. These circulating through these regions became the prototypes for the famed Highland hilts (termed Irish hilts in those times), while some of the Sinclair type versions were deemed 'schiavona' like.

While the Reivers' period effectively ended in 1603 when James IV took the throne, and essentially dismissed the border, now terming the former border lands the 'middle shires'...he took to persecution of these families and harshly prosecuting any 'lawlessness'. However, of course, the Reiver identity remained profoundly intact, and continued in degree regardless.

Returning to weapons discussions, on swords and the 'whinger' term:
From a previous post,
"whineyard, whinyard, or Scottish 'whinger' ..defined by Minsheu (Compendium, 1625) as 'a hanger'.

From: "Hunting Weapons", H.L.Blackmore, 1971, p.14
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Old 4th November 2023, 02:36 AM   #83
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Default How Northern England Made the Southern United States

Please see https://www.historytoday.com/miscell...-united-states from which I QUOTE" But perhaps the most vivid vignette of the borderers’ enduring influence on America came via George MacDonald Fraser’s description – in his introduction to his study of the border Reivers The Steel Bonnets – of that moment in 1969 when the descendants of ‘three notable Anglo-Scottish Border tribes’ gathered for the US presidential inauguration in Washington DC, with Lyndon Johnson handing over to Richard Nixon in the presence of Billy Graham (while at Cape Canaveral, another descendent of the borderers, Neil Armstrong, prepared himself for the Apollo 11 Space Mission). Johnson with his ‘lined, leathery Northern head and rangy, rather loose-jointed frame’, and Nixon’s ‘blunt, heavy features, the dark complexion, the burly body, and the whole air of dour hardness’ which was, in MacDonald Fraser’s view, ‘as typical of the Anglo-Scottish frontier as the Roman Wall’. "UNQUOTE.

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Old 6th November 2023, 11:24 AM   #84
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Default Shotley..Reivers... Borderlands Museum

Way off subject I know...
But anyone interested in blade construction may find my recent posting on Shotley Bridge Swords of interest.
The Border Reivers and very much more....
In addition we are now putting the finishing touches to the Borderlands Museum... and hope to have it up and running in the New Year...
This is the result of 62 yrs continuous work by this family, and their associates... may of whom are now classed as "absent friends."
Best way to keep updated is on my blog.. the link to which is below...
All the Best to Everyone...
Brian Moffatt.
Senior Curator.
The Borderlands Museum.

(A Shrine... A Memorial... and an Art Installartion.)

https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl...word-with.html
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Old 6th November 2023, 08:33 PM   #85
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Thank you Brian Moffat and I look forward to seeing your museum in the new year...

Regards,
Peter Hudson.
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