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Old 21st August 2021, 07:34 PM   #1
tscheidt
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Default Joseph Ebert gun early 18th century, made in Czechoslovakia

First, I am super excited to be here. I have been looking at how helpful everyone is to each other here, and any arguments are just fact based and intellectual instead of what I find on Reddit:-).

I have desperately tried to figure this gun and carvings out but I just can't crack it....it is also possible I am 100% the wrong direction etc.......But any help I would appreciate.

APRAG on banner, in Hindi it is something old. The direct English translation is Standpat, to rebel authority.

LAKSHMIBAI is likely the person carved in an authority position?

MR built into the hilt? Marital Race was the only initials matching in found anywhere.

Joseph Ebert? There is a famous German gun maker from this time with the same last name and nearly identical work.

Why would a Rebellion supporting gun have English translations and English letters, with an unknown German name.

The dragon symbol?

The two rebels tied to a post? Or are they British Raj maybe?

Cross in the circle with arrow through it on the trigger guard. The whole carving in a mystery.

Maybe it all has an easy explanation but I have not been able to find it and I have fallen down many many rabbit holes:-). I also have a turkish gun I will post later but there are a few almost identical ones here in a forum and that is how I ended up here:-)
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Last edited by Lee; 23rd August 2021 at 01:41 AM. Reason: Removed duplicate images
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Old 22nd August 2021, 12:49 AM   #2
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While, sadly, I can't help with your question, it would be of interest to see photos of the other side of the pistol, and a top, bottom and front view as well. (That might also be of some use to those here who might be in a better position to help with identification.)
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Old 22nd August 2021, 02:08 AM   #3
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While, sadly, I can't help with your question, it would be of interest to see photos of the other side of the pistol, and a top, bottom and front view as well. (That might also be of some use to those here who might be in a better position to help with identification.)
I'll do that right away. I had to shrink them quite a bit so I'll figure out and upload shortly I had it all on Google drive at 108 mp so it's been a challenge to shrink 🙂
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Old 22nd August 2021, 07:32 AM   #4
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I'll do that right away. I had to shrink them quite a bit so I'll figure out and upload shortly I had it all on Google drive at 108 mp so it's been a challenge to shrink 🙂
Here are more detailed pics. Sorry for the original post. Hope someone can help.


.
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Last edited by fernando; 31st August 2021 at 02:14 PM. Reason: Straightening up some pictures
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Old 22nd August 2021, 07:33 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Bob A View Post
While, sadly, I can't help with your question, it would be of interest to see photos of the other side of the pistol, and a top, bottom and front view as well. (That might also be of some use to those here who might be in a better position to help with identification.)
As soon as I have editing permission I can fix it. Uploaded a bunch more.
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Old 22nd August 2021, 06:57 PM   #6
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Ebert Gun . Please seehttps://lsbauctions.com/954/beautiful-pair-of-p-ebert-sohne-suhl-pistols-50-caliber-percussion-target-pistols-antique/ for a pair of target pistols of P.Ebert Your exhibit could be an Ebert...and I noted looking at the web quite a variety of work by that gunmaker. I agree that a useful photo shot may be over the top of the breach where many gun smiths placed their names etc. I have never fired a 50 cal piston but imagine quite a recoil !!
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Old 22nd August 2021, 07:10 PM   #7
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Ebert Gun . Please seehttps://lsbauctions.com/954/beautiful-pair-of-p-ebert-sohne-suhl-pistols-50-caliber-percussion-target-pistols-antique/ for a pair of target pistols of P.Ebert Your exhibit could be an Ebert...and I noted looking at the web quite a variety of work by that gunmaker. I agree that a useful photo shot may be over the top of the breach where many gun smiths placed their names etc. I have never fired a 50 cal piston but imagine quite a recoil !!
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Thanks Pete. There are so many striking similarities but then so many questions?

Who is Joseph. MR initials etc. New pics have greater detail. I screwed up my photo sizing and it made copies instead of shrinking .

Not sure if drive posts are allowed when not main thread but here.. if you don't want to wait for the admin approval of my pics. Also, I purchased these at the auction. They are not still for sale.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...wv01WLxtOlWDRh
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Old 22nd August 2021, 07:27 PM   #8
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In these pics you can see the name etc.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 03:54 PM   #9
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The pistol appears to have a depiction of Britannia and forward of the trigger guard is the typical British pineapple design. If not British made then was made for the British market.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 05:02 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by tscheidt View Post
Thanks Pete. There are so many striking similarities but then so many questions?

Who is Joseph. MR initials etc. New pics have greater detail. I screwed up my photo sizing and it made copies instead of shrinking .

Not sure if drive posts are allowed when not main thread but here.. if you don't want to wait for the admin approval of my pics. Also, I purchased these at the auction. They are not still for sale.

https://drive.google.com/folderview?...wv01WLxtOlWDRh
Hello tscheidt, Meanwhile I have a possible maker see https://www.olympiaauctions.com/sale.../view-lot/291/ Note that this item 291 is sold thus is ok to look at for forum purposes...There you can see the maker German ... KEHLNER etc etc and with PRAG inscribed.
Regards Peter Hudson
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Old 23rd August 2021, 05:13 PM   #11
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iN ADDITION THE PLATE SEEMS TO BE INSCRIBED IN CAPITAL LETTERS ...JOSEF EBERT...???

Regards, Peter Hudson.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 07:35 PM   #12
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would be nice to see this pistol in its original flintlock configuration.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 09:57 PM   #13
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would be nice to see this pistol in its original flintlock configuration.
Interesting you say that. I recieved this reply from someone who specializes in Ebert guns.


My first impression of the gun is that it was originally a Flintlock (notice the root of the cut off pan still remining below the percussion drum), converted to Percussion, secondly that the lock design does not say to me that it is central Germany but further east. Eugene Heer's book-Der Neue Stockel cites-"Joseph Ebert, Prag (Praha)/CS, ca. 1710-1740. I believe that the "APRAG" means "at Prag". Similarly some early guns are found marked ASUHL which can be read as made "AT SUHL". The engraving is very interesting but I don't think the gun has any connection to India. The engraving may refer to events happening in the late 17th or early 18th Century.

With Best Regards;

Larry B.Schuknecht
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Old 23rd August 2021, 10:02 PM   #14
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The pistol appears to have a depiction of Britannia and forward of the trigger guard is the typical British pineapple design. If not British made then was made for the British market.
That's where I got lost. I originally thought it was a depiction of England in a power position over India etc. But the Aprag sent me to the rebellion. However, if the Aprag means where it was made?.....Then that makes the questions of who are the initials? Etc.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 10:06 PM   #15
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iN ADDITION THE PLATE SEEMS TO BE INSCRIBED IN CAPITAL LETTERS ...JOSEF EBERT...???

Regards, Peter Hudson.
On both sides of the weapon. But I've seen that kehlner wording or name somewhere in relation to the Ebert name I think. ?
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Old 24th August 2021, 01:35 AM   #16
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iN ADDITION THE PLATE SEEMS TO BE INSCRIBED IN CAPITAL LETTERS ...JOSEF EBERT...???

Regards, Peter Hudson.

I think you are trying to read too much into some aspects of the gun, the early engravers were very creative but their goal was to decorate not record historical events particularly although that did occasionally happen on guns dedicated to an individual for heroism. Many of the old guns had markings which are now of no known meaning. Knowing that it was made by Joseph Ebert of Prag, Checkoslavakia in the first half of the 18th Century is more than we can come up with in may instances.

I have attached a scann of the Eberts in the Heer's Der Neue Stockel so you can see that there were quite a few Eberts spread all over Europe and these are the recorded ones so it was a somewhat prolific gunmaking family

This is from the guy who had the site dedicated to the Ebert's line of gun makers.

Still leaves me with more questions than answers. Who's initials? There has to be a reason for the initials. As well as 2 people tied to a pole doesn't feel like artistic expression.
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Old 24th August 2021, 01:38 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Peter Hudson View Post
iN ADDITION THE PLATE SEEMS TO BE INSCRIBED IN CAPITAL LETTERS ...JOSEF EBERT...???

Regards, Peter Hudson.
Apparently a part of the line of Ebert gun makers
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Old 24th August 2021, 01:43 AM   #18
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In these pics you can see the name etc.
Can I somehow change the title to
Joseph Ebert gun early 18th century, made in Czechoslovakia.
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Old 25th August 2021, 12:03 AM   #19
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Done ...
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Old 28th August 2021, 06:15 PM   #20
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I am curious on the definitions of the word APRAG. What source describes this word in Hindi? also how is this word translated to STANDPAT in English?
I do appreciate the inclusion of this research, but am unable to locate corroboration.

As far as the pistol being German made, and in English context that is quite understandable. English officers, who of course provided their own weapons, often commissioned custom inscriptions.
It is indeed compelling to consider these bound, turbaned figures as rebels of the 1857 insurrection in India, but puzzling why such a patriotic slogan and these figures would be on an English gun (though German made).

I cannot see the name or term Lakshmibai on the gun, where is it located?
The 'dragon' on the hammer arms seems to be a dog rather than dragon.

Perhaps this gun was for someone who remained allied to the British?
but then why celebrate the act of rebelling with the term 'standpat'?
The idea of a Hindu leader or person of status having such a pistol seems rather unlikely.

Perhaps there were British who opposed the actions to suppress the rebellion? It's not as if we dont have such opposition against war or authoritarian control these days. Perhaps a pacifist in this case?
Just thoughts on the perplexing motif on this pistol, and not meant to stir editorial reactions.
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Old 29th August 2021, 07:08 AM   #21
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For me this "APRAGA" is wrongly written and should to be read as "A PRAGA" the French version of "in the city of Prag", what is fitting to Joseph Ebert. who has been working at Prag.
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Old 29th August 2021, 10:54 AM   #22
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Moving this one over to the European Arms and Armoury Forum where there may be further people interested in the discussion.
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Old 31st August 2021, 07:43 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
I am curious on the definitions of the word APRAG. What source describes this word in Hindi? also how is this word translated to STANDPAT in English?
I do appreciate the inclusion of this research, but am unable to locate corroboration.

As far as the pistol being German made, and in English context that is quite understandable. English officers, who of course provided their own weapons, often commissioned custom inscriptions.
It is indeed compelling to consider these bound, turbaned figures as rebels of the 1857 insurrection in India, but puzzling why such a patriotic slogan and these figures would be on an English gun (though German made).

I cannot see the name or term Lakshmibai on the gun, where is it located?
The 'dragon' on the hammer arms seems to be a dog rather than dragon.

Perhaps this gun was for someone who remained allied to the British?
but then why celebrate the act of rebelling with the term 'standpat'?
The idea of a Hindu leader or person of status having such a pistol seems rather unlikely.

Perhaps there were British who opposed the actions to suppress the rebellion? It's not as if we dont have such opposition against war or authoritarian control these days. Perhaps a pacifist in this case?
Just thoughts on the perplexing motif on this pistol, and not meant to stir editorial reactions.
https://dict.hinkhoj.com/aprag-meaning-in-hindi.words

I could be off on all that translation and have now seen numerous reasons why it is likely made in Prague. The Ebert timeline etc. So it looks more and more the Indian rebellion is a dead end.

Lakshmibai was the symbol of the Rebellion. With the Hindi track someone noticed that the depictions of her looked similar.

So we are looking at the above timeline in Prague by the looks of it.
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Old 31st August 2021, 07:58 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by corrado26 View Post
For me this "APRAGA" is wrongly written and should to be read as "A PRAGA" the French version of "in the city of Prag", what is fitting to Joseph Ebert. who has been working at Prag.
corrado26
So it seems this is pretty much 99% confirmed that it is made between 1710 and 1740 by Joseph Ebert of the Ebert gunmaker family.

So the initials in the hilt?

The depiction of the two people tied to a pole and the symbol of authority with the dagger?

The dog/dragon/pointy nosed thingy with the wavy things behind it?;-)

The cross/two lines in the circle with a flaming? arrow? on trigger guard?

If A Prag is a french depiction of the word does that have any meaning to the mystery at all? I am grasping at straws here:-)
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Old 31st August 2021, 08:20 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
I am curious on the definitions of the word APRAG. What source describes this word in Hindi? also how is this word translated to STANDPAT in English?
I do appreciate the inclusion of this research, but am unable to locate corroboration.

As far as the pistol being German made, and in English context that is quite understandable. English officers, who of course provided their own weapons, often commissioned custom inscriptions.
It is indeed compelling to consider these bound, turbaned figures as rebels of the 1857 insurrection in India, but puzzling why such a patriotic slogan and these figures would be on an English gun (though German made).

I cannot see the name or term Lakshmibai on the gun, where is it located?
The 'dragon' on the hammer arms seems to be a dog rather than dragon.

Perhaps this gun was for someone who remained allied to the British?
but then why celebrate the act of rebelling with the term 'standpat'?
The idea of a Hindu leader or person of status having such a pistol seems rather unlikely.

Perhaps there were British who opposed the actions to suppress the rebellion? It's not as if we dont have such opposition against war or authoritarian control these days. Perhaps a pacifist in this case?
Just thoughts on the perplexing motif on this pistol, and not meant to stir editorial reactions.
I looked in better lighting and it appears that the people tied to the pole are wearing some sort of turban with feathers? coming from the center above the forehead.
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Old 31st August 2021, 02:18 PM   #26
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Here are more detailed pics. Sorry for the original post. Hope someone can help..
Pictures upright now, Larry -
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Old 31st August 2021, 03:28 PM   #27
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Are you guys considering that, once this gun was originally a flintlock, the hammer would not have been that of the spitfire dog but something different ? And, for the same reason, even the Ebert name would have not originally been there, as it would be senselessly hidden under the frizzen spring ?
And so was part of the front decoration ?
I know all this is foolish but ... don't tie me to the whipping post .


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Last edited by fernando; 31st August 2021 at 04:58 PM.
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Old 31st August 2021, 05:18 PM   #28
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Default The city ... yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado26 View Post
For me this "APRAGA" is wrongly written and should to be read as "A PRAGA" the French version of "in the city of Prag", what is fitting to Joseph Ebert. who has been working at Prag.
corrado26
Gun smith PAUL POSER marked after his name A PRAG, or IN PRAG. And he did work in Prague.
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Old 31st August 2021, 05:47 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by tscheidt View Post
... MR built into the hilt? Marital Race was the only initials matching in found anywhere...
Larry, i would have no doubt that those are the initials of the gun owner's name ... which picture you forgot to upload .


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Old 31st August 2021, 05:53 PM   #30
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Can you show us a picture of the hammer in the full-cock position ?
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