Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 28th November 2022, 07:33 PM   #31
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
An interesting item I found as I continue researching aspects of the Reivers topic,refers to the term 'marches'.

I discovered that 'marches' refer to the regional divisions of border territories indicating the 'border' was not just a simple line of division between Scotland and England, but a well buffered expanse that seems akin to a DMZ.


Jim, it also points to similar rules across Europe as I discovered by applying for a definition at Wikipedia" I QUOTE. "

British Isles

: Welsh Marches and Scottish Marches
The name of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom in the midlands of England was Mercia. The name "Mercia" comes from the Old English for "boundary folk", and the traditional interpretation was that the kingdom originated along the frontier between the Welsh and the Anglo-Saxon invaders, although P. Hunter Blair has argued an alternative interpretation that they emerged along the frontier between the Kingdom of Northumbria and the inhabitants of the River Trent valley.

Latinizing the Anglo-Saxon term mearc, the border areas between England and Wales were collectively known as the Welsh Marches (marchia Wallia), while the native Welsh lands to the west were considered Wales Proper (pura Wallia). The Norman lords in the Welsh Marches were to become the new Marcher Lords.

The title Earl of March is at least two distinct feudal titles: one in the northern marches, as an alternative title for the Earl of Dunbar (c. 1290 in the Peerage of Scotland); and one, that was held by the family of Mortimer (1328 in the Peerage of England), in the west Welsh Marches.

The Scottish Marches is a term for the border regions on both sides of the border between England and Scotland. From the Norman conquest of England until the reign of King James VI of Scotland, who also became King James I of England, border clashes were common and the monarchs of both countries relied on Marcher Lords to defend the frontier areas known as the Marches. They were hand-picked for their suitability for the challenges the responsibilities presented.

Patrick Dunbar, 8th Earl of Dunbar, a descendant of the Earls of Northumbria was recognized in the end of the 13th century to use the name March as his earldom in Scotland, otherwise known as Dunbar, Lothian, and Northumbrian border.

Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March, Regent of England together with Isabella of France during the minority of her son, Edward III, was a usurper who had deposed, and allegedly arranged the murder of, King Edward II. He was created an earl in September 1328 at the height of his de facto rule. His wife was Joan de Geneville, 2nd Baroness Geneville, whose mother, Jeanne of Lusignan was one of the heiresses of the French Counts of La Marche and Angouleme.

His family, Mortimer Lords of Wigmore, had been border lords and leaders of defenders of Welsh marches for centuries. He selected March as the name of his earldom for several reasons: Welsh marches referred to several counties, whereby the title signified superiority compared to usual single county-based earldoms. Mercia was an ancient kingdom. His wife's ancestors had been Counts of La Marche and Angouleme in France.

In Ireland, a hybrid system of marches existed which was condemned as barbaric at the time.[a] The Irish marches constituted the territory between English and Irish-dominated lands, which appeared as soon as the English did and were called by King John to be fortified.[10] By the 14th century, they had become defined as the land between The Pale and the rest of Ireland.[11] Local Anglo-Irish and Gaelic chieftains who acted as powerful spokespeople were recognised by the Crown and given a degree of independence. Uniquely, the keepers of the marches were given the power to terminate indictments. In later years, wardens of the Irish marches took Irish tenants.[12][13][14]".UNQUOTE.

Peter Hudson.
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th November 2022, 08:50 PM   #32
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,153
Default

Thank you Peter! That really deepens the texture of these border regions in this more complex understanding. MOST interesting! Thank you.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th November 2022, 05:17 PM   #33
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 111
Default

I think evidence of the follow on of The Northern Horse virtually wiped off the battlefield in 1644 at Marsden Moor may be observed at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rabble-Gent.../dp/1911512986

Here I am talking about the actual animal which after the battle must have been rounded up and sold ..apparently across England.

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

Last edited by Peter Hudson; 29th November 2022 at 06:33 PM.
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th November 2022, 09:22 PM   #34
urbanspaceman
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tyneside. North-East England
Posts: 336
Default Port wine

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando View Post
You know Keith, you could by a high-end sword for the price of a bottle of Graham's 'Ne Oublie' Tawny Port ? .
Hello Fernando; late in responding: I've been AWOL this weekend.
Graham's Port is available in any of our supermarkets and is an acceptable drop; but I visited a shop in Lisbon on several occasions (corner shop on the edge of the city-center close to the river; sadly, I forget its name) that brings the truth of my previous satisfactory experiences into disrepute. This shop, and its owner made me realise just what a truly wonderful product Port can be. I love Lisbon... especially at Christmas in a tuc-tuc after a couple of glasses.
urbanspaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2022, 03:42 PM   #35
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,104
Default

Just browse the Net on "Ne Oblie" selective Graham's Port cast, to better see what i meant .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2022, 05:05 PM   #36
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 1,991
Default

Here's another sword of the era. I'm assuming these were just the European types that were circulating during the time of the Reivers. I've always been attracted to this sword-type, similar to the 'bird-head' style swords of the 16th/early 17th c.


https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/798614946435429884/
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2022, 05:46 PM   #37
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 111
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by M ELEY View Post
Here's another sword of the era. I'm assuming these were just the European types that were circulating during the time of the Reivers. I've always been attracted to this sword-type, similar to the 'bird-head' style swords of the 16th/early 17th c.


https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/798614946435429884/
This is an interesting name which could be Northern meaning Hanger...I note from The Free Dictionary that it states;

whinge (wɪndʒ)
vb (intr) , whinges, whingeing or whinged
1. to cry in a fretful way
2. to complain
n
a complaint
[from a Northern variant of Old English hwinsian to whine; related to Old High German winsan, winisan, whence Middle High German winsen]
ˈwhingeing n, adj
ˈwhinger n


As kids we were often told to stop Whingeing and get on with it!!

Regards,
Peter Hudson.
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2022, 06:20 PM   #38
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 111
Default

Further more ... It also meant to give someone a thrust of the broadsword ..To give someone a Whinge .
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2022, 08:23 PM   #39
urbanspaceman
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tyneside. North-East England
Posts: 336
Default Brian again

Quote:
Originally Posted by M ELEY View Post
Of course! I wasn't thinking about the terrain at all, was I? So the two-handed claidheigm da laim was out. I had heard mention of a 'winjer' before and found the attached information (or at least picture). Looks like an Italian-sytle falchion! Very interesting! Thank you for those excellent references as well. Interesting how the one page mentions the main gauche. Is this weapon associted with this region at that time? The parrying dagger was an excellent implement, I just wasn't sure if there was a preferred use for it over the Scotch dirk or ballock.

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/347410558741707302/
I note the incredible image of a whinger is on Pinterest courtesy of Mr Moffatt
https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl.../?view=classic
I am so looking forward to visiting his museum
urbanspaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2022, 04:56 PM   #40
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanspaceman View Post
I note the incredible image of a whinger is on Pinterest courtesy of Mr Moffatt
https://fallingangelslosthighways.bl.../?view=classic
I am so looking forward to visiting his museum
Hello Keith, Yes he has some amazing gear there and hopefully some will be displayed at his Museum in Hawick when it opens...
Regards,
Peter Hudson.
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2022, 05:48 PM   #41
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 111
Default

Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) | German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle.

Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/

Last edited by Peter Hudson; 2nd December 2022 at 06:00 PM.
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2022, 09:08 PM   #42
urbanspaceman
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tyneside. North-East England
Posts: 336
Default Reivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Hudson View Post
Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) | German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle.

Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/
This is great stuff Peter. The website above is superb. Seems we are not the only folk interested.
urbanspaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2022, 06:02 PM   #43
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Hudson View Post
Fencing especially from horseback didnt get taught in any formal way such as developed from documents such as on the Continent from "Fencing Book (Fechtbuch) | German" principles moreover, it was developed as you went along such as The Lockerbie Lick from skirmishes at the Battle of Dryfe Sands. A powerful backhand downstrike of the sword from the saddle.

Please see http://reivers.info/battle-of-dryfe-sands/
This is really interesting Peter! and I had never heard of this 'Lockerbie Lick'! I always wonder at the many localized idioms used to describe these sword fighting 'tricks'. It seems the Scots had very distinct moves and measures they employed in fencing, and these are well described by Donald McBane in "The Expert Swordsmans Companion"(1728) and the "Scots Fencing Master" by Sir William Hope (1687).

The Spaniards in their mysterious, geometric 'Spanish fight' called destreza, used many unique 'tricks' which were regarded as formidable, if not deadly, despite the derision with which this elaborate style was often regarded.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2022, 06:30 PM   #44
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 111
Default

Hello Keith, Clearly Mr Brian Moffat has had a huge struggle to win political support for a museum at Hawick (pronounced Hoik) on the subject of Border Reivers. Something similar transpired over Shotley Bridge which has nothing of note on their concreted over history...Most people I spoke with in Shotley had no idea about it although one or two had heard of THe Lampton Worm...For Mr Moffat to be now poised to open a Border Reivers Museum has done wonders and that will inspire the Border Reivers story to be learned by all ...I would bet that it is absent from the History teaching syllabus in this region. Once it has opened we should drive up there and have a look.

Regards,
Peter Hudson.
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2022, 08:58 PM   #45
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 111
Default

Hello Jim,
In many ways local nicknames have given weapons meanings and sounds quite unfamiliar with the original and for this the Northern accent is a leader in its field as I peer out on the chilly Northumberland landscape which looks like "Ginny will be soon Ploatin' the geese" meaning it will soon be snowing! Northerners quite often suplant peculiar wordage in strange subjects built arround the peculiar accent and the distinct description of a weapon or object as well as giving an honorary nickname to a known warrior and it seems that may be linked in places in the USA that Borderers were Transported to in the 17thC before and after Culloden.Thus Indian Warriors could be given tough fighting names such as Sitting Bull or Crazy Horse etc. According to an early Artesan working as a designer in Shotley Bridge the name of hunting animals was coined for many English Seamen roaming the country and huge numbers of English Seamen came from up north, following their forced retirement from duty since no proper insurance had been placed should they be badly injured as many were at Trafalgar etc. This nicknaming was also applied to Border Reiver leaders and key characters ...as well as to weapons with the favoured curved sabre getting the name Whinger and the lance the Pricker. The bullet proofed Jacket was shortened to Jack and en masse the cavalry made up of these hardened local fighters could be termed Prickers or taking another name from the white sheeps wool overcoat to that of ..White Coats. or in describing them as Steel Bonnets as the head armour would often be the steel helmet of the lobster pot style. The cross bow was known as The Latch.. after its latch style release mechanism...

Regards,
Peter Hudson.
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2022, 09:27 PM   #46
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 111
Default

One special weapon appears particularly on the Scottish side of the Borders and that is outlined here; https://doi.org/10.1163/9789047407577_023

Thus 2 alternatives ...the one being the Jeddart (Jedburgh) Staff and the other the Lochaber Axe.
The article suggests that it was not used to unhorse an opponent but more to hang the weapon on the wall...It seems there were two versions ...The Jedburgh Staff and Lochaber Axe and you can decide if it was useful? ...I think it was ... and as the Border Reiver had a lot of straps on weapons and riding gear... hooking him off his horse would seem to me as very possible. assuming you could get inside lance or sword etc...

Peter Hudson.

Last edited by Peter Hudson; 3rd December 2022 at 09:44 PM.
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2022, 09:31 PM   #47
urbanspaceman
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tyneside. North-East England
Posts: 336
Default Separated by a common language.

Apologies for hi-jacking this thread while it is drawing good attention.
This expression was usually applied to the Yanks and the Brits, but could be applied quite equally to our island's four countries... ruling out their indigenous language and considering purely the shared English language.
Mostly, we can all understand each other over here; but it is often not the case for you folks over the pond. My friends in Oregon needs subtitles for the majority of British TV and movies and even then they constantly email me to translate a particular word or phrase.

This brings me to the point of this post: where did the name Colichemarde come from?
It sounds French, but was only ever a neologism from 1801 onwards over there, when even regular small-swords were passe by then.
Sir William Hope's mention in 1707 of the Koningsberg blade describes a colichemarde quite precisely.
I've already proposed that the colichemarde blade was machine made, and the machine was chased out of Solingen and established in Shotley Bridge, but it certainly isn't a word or name that was ever heard over here.
All input is gratefully received.

Last edited by urbanspaceman; 3rd December 2022 at 09:33 PM. Reason: add apology
urbanspaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2022, 10:10 PM   #48
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 111
Default

I have seen a few reasonable descriptions however it is difficult to believe that such a French sounding word caught on except that to own such an expensive sword the owner probably was educated and probably spoke French...and German.

I looked at Transitional Rapier/Smallsword with massive Hilt which was placed about 9 years ago on Forum and which seemed a good place to start...

A reasonable description is made in the French dictionary.viz,

Colichemarde.
The name of the colichemarde is the German name for the sword. Colichemarde does not designate a weapon as much as a style of blade. However, as the only historical colosseums were court swords, colichemarde designates by extension this type of court sword. Although apparently French in origin, the denomination seems to come from German by Graf von Königsmark. It spreads in Italy following the invasions of Francis I. It is a blade with a strong base that sharply refines after a certain distance and ends with a diamond point. These blades generally benefit from a quality treatment by the gunsmith who will have engraved and blue-brown the blade.

Regards, Peter.

Last edited by Peter Hudson; 3rd December 2022 at 10:21 PM.
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2022, 10:15 PM   #49
urbanspaceman
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tyneside. North-East England
Posts: 336
Default hi-jack

Hey Lee. Can you move this post re- colichemardes to a new thread?
I should not have posted it on Peter's thread.
urbanspaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th December 2022, 07:49 PM   #50
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 111
Default

In tryng to get an angle on the English Army ORBAT ..I refer readers to

http://home.mysoul.com.au/graemecook...06_English.htm

and I QUOTE" CAVALRY ; Early to late 16thC 'Men at Arms' with heavy lance, full armour, and often barded horse, were still used in the first half of the century, but were few in number though of high quality. In 1544 Henry VIII had his 75 'Gentlemen Pensioners' or household cavalry, and 12t 'men-at-arms'. Individual noblemen would also serve in full plate. Appearance of such troops would be much the same in any nation, though Englishmen might wear rounded Greenwich armour.
Much more numerous were the 'demi-lances', with corselet only, or threequarter armour, open burgonet, and unbarded horse. These men carried a light lance and later pistols as well, and formed the main English cavalry up to the end of the century.
Demi-lances formed about one-fifth of the English cavalry, the remaining four-fifths being the characteristic English light cavalry, referred to variously as 'javelins', 'prickers', 'Northern spears' or 'Border horse'.
They were also armed with light lance and one pistol, sometimes carrying a round or oval shield as well, and wore an open helmet, mail shirt or jack (corselet for the wealthier individuals), leather breeches and boots. Such cavalry were supplied by several English counties, but the best came from the raiders of the Scottish border, who were reputed to spear salmon from the saddle!
Cavalry were always in short supply in English armies; Henry VIII supplemented them with Burgundians and Germans with boar-spear and pistols. In Ireland in the later 16th Century cavalry usually formed about one-eighth of an English army. In Henry's time they were organised in 'bands', cornets, or squadrons of 100 men, later of about 50". UNQUOTE.

Peter Hudson.
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th December 2022, 09:19 PM   #51
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Hudson View Post
I have seen a few reasonable descriptions however it is difficult to believe that such a French sounding word caught on except that to own such an expensive sword the owner probably was educated and probably spoke French...and German.

I looked at Transitional Rapier/Smallsword with massive Hilt which was placed about 9 years ago on Forum and which seemed a good place to start...

A reasonable description is made in the French dictionary.viz,

Colichemarde.
The name of the colichemarde is the German name for the sword. Colichemarde does not designate a weapon as much as a style of blade. However, as the only historical colosseums were court swords, colichemarde designates by extension this type of court sword. Although apparently French in origin, the denomination seems to come from German by Graf von Königsmark. It spreads in Italy following the invasions of Francis I. It is a blade with a strong base that sharply refines after a certain distance and ends with a diamond point. These blades generally benefit from a quality treatment by the gunsmith who will have engraved and blue-brown the blade.

Regards, Peter.
Spot on! The term 'colichemarde' term is entirely with respect to the blade, as the hilt forms are the same as on the small swords of the period. The term is apocryphal but the alignment with the cognate Konigsmark seems reasonable enough. His reputation as a duelist was likely the choice to term the blade form.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2022, 10:09 PM   #52
urbanspaceman
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tyneside. North-East England
Posts: 336
Default confusion over names

Graf von Königsmark: a German family who fought for the Swedish.

Koningsberg is a town in Russia.

Did Sir William Hope get the name wrong?
urbanspaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2022, 10:12 PM   #53
urbanspaceman
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tyneside. North-East England
Posts: 336
Default Reivers

Peter, this stuff is fantastic... thank-you.
urbanspaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2022, 01:21 AM   #54
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 111
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanspaceman View Post
Graf von Königsmark: a German family who fought for the Swedish.

Koningsberg is a town in Russia.

Did Sir William Hope get the name wrong?
''
Keith,
I am not sure... It is a bit unclear ...see https://military-history.fandom.com/...#Brief_history...which is also unclear...Peter
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2022, 04:44 PM   #55
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 111
Default

The muddle is best seen at https://core.ac.uk/reader/161102560

while the full story is worth looking at...even if the mathematics are a puzzle...The familytree does however seem to be pointing at Karl Johan as the more likely root of this swords start point...

Peter Hudson.
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2022, 11:32 PM   #56
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Hudson View Post
This is an interesting name which could be Northern meaning Hanger...I note from The Free Dictionary that it states;

whinge (wɪndʒ)
vb (intr) , whinges, whingeing or whinged
1. to cry in a fretful way
2. to complain
n
a complaint
[from a Northern variant of Old English hwinsian to whine; related to Old High German winsan, winisan, whence Middle High German winsen]
ˈwhingeing n, adj
ˈwhinger n


As kids we were often told to stop Whingeing and get on with it!!

Regards,
Peter Hudson.

From "Hunting Weapons", 1971, H.L.Blackmore, p.14:
"...whineyard, whinyard or in its Scottish form, whinger, is defined by Minsheu (Compendium, 1625) as a hanger".
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.