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Old 16th August 2011, 08:00 PM   #1
Lew
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Default Another Jambiya for Comment

Just picked this up today can't tell but my guess is mid 20th century?
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Old 16th August 2011, 08:12 PM   #2
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Hey Lew, Congrats.

It looks to be from that time period indeed. The belt atleast fits the timeline. The scabbard decoration looks better then average? is it a low grade silver? I liked this one but couldnt bid on it!

Regards,

Abdullatif
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Old 16th August 2011, 08:28 PM   #3
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Abdullatif

I don't have it in hand yet it should be here by next week will update you then.
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Old 25th January 2013, 08:31 PM   #4
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So Lew, how about sharing some nice photos of this one? :-)
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Old 25th January 2013, 09:14 PM   #5
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Hi Lew,

I think I was looking at it's 'twin' a few weeks ago!
Nice example, as said above, great belt and scabbard fittings.

Last edited by Atlantia; 25th January 2013 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 25th January 2013, 11:30 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
So Lew, how about sharing some nice photos of this one? :-)
Salaams Lotfy

Will try to get some for you tomorrow.
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Old 26th January 2013, 12:59 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew
Salaams Lotfy

Will try to get some for you tomorrow.
Looking forward to it. I want to learn more about these ;-)
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Old 26th January 2013, 01:38 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew
Just picked this up today can't tell but my guess is mid 20th century?

Salaams Lew ~ I would agree with 20th C but late. Post 48; probably 70s 80s ? Often shown with copies of coinage and the big broad blade. With the situation in Yemen being more or less "dire" merchants are keen to move these around the markets thus there are loads in surrounding neighboring countries souks. I'm not sure what they represent in terms of ethnographic daggers in the sense that pre the exodus of Jewish artesans we know that the quality of work was far superior so that perhaps these represent Yemeni craftsmanship as it struggled to raise its level of expertise, though, some would argue that they never acheived that even today. The item I show is even later ...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 26th January 2013, 01:42 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams Lew ~ I would agree with 20th C but late. Post 48; probably 70s 80s ? Often shown with copies of coinage and the big broad blade. With the situation in Yemen being more or less "dire" merchants are keen to move these around the markets thus there are loads in surrounding neighboring countries souks. I'm not sure what they represent in terms of ethnographic daggers in the sense that pre the exodus of Jewish artesans we know that the quality of work was far superior so that perhaps these represent Yemeni craftsmanship as it struggled to raise its level of expertise, though, some would argue that they never acheived that even today. The item I show is even later ...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Its really difficult to define how old are Yemeni/Omani items are. There is lots of restoration and reuse. The blade on Lew's is of good quality compared to yours (which you correctly point out to be newer then the age you suggest for Lew's) Though in general the older blades are of better quality and comes forged with thicker central ridge. Hindawan and older Gusbi blades are still desirable and get refurbished often.
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Old 26th January 2013, 01:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
Its really difficult to define how old are Yemeni/Omani items are. There is lots of restoration and reuse. The blade on Lew's is of good quality compared to yours (which you correctly point out to be newer then the age you suggest for Lew's) Though in general the older blades are of better quality and comes forged with thicker central ridge. Hindawan and older Gusbi blades are still desirable and get refurbished often.

Salaams A.alnakkas Yes I don't disagree with any of that, however, I use the pivottal date of 1948 as the likely time after which the project item was made. Lew has a better belt i.e. with the floral decorations etc and the blade is highly polished ... mine isnt I think it reasonable to guage this dagger in a group of weapons attributed to Yemeni craftsmen post 48. For lookers-on your reference is perfectly correct about age on these items as it should be noted that many parts are swapped and changed and that can be very confusing. Forum recently noted how rhino hilted swords were being dismantled to refit Jambias with those hilts. Swapping weapon parts is very common.

As an afternote I would add that a close inspection of the silver furniture will no doubt discover if it has any makers stamps... which would undo my guestimate and no doubt delight the new owner. On magnification I note that the pattern and style on the buckle and main body of the item are perhaps similar so we could all get a surprise...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 26th January 2013 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 26th January 2013, 02:16 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams A.alnakkas Yes I don't disagree with any of that, however, I use the pivottal date of 1948 as the likely time after which the project item was made. Lew has a better belt i.e. with the floral decorations etc and the blade is highly polished ... mine isnt I think it reasonable to guage this dagger in a group of weapons attributed to Yemeni craftsmen post 48. For lookers-on your reference is perfectly correct about age on these items as it should be noted that many parts are swapped and changed and that can be very confusing. Forum recently noted how rhino hilted swords were being dismantled to refit Jambias with those hilts. Swapping weapon parts is very common.

As an afternote I would add that a close inspection of the silver furniture will no doubt discover if it has any makers stamps... which would undo my guestimate and no doubt delight the new owner. On magnification I note that the pattern and style on the buckle and main body of the item are perhaps similar so we could all get a surprise...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
I am always alittle weary of precise dates. But will try not to delve deep into it.

The best way to define a good blade on a jambiya/khanjar is to check how well the central ridge is formed. The thicker and larger it is the better the craftmanship. Yours is probably made of 2 sheet steel which is the lowest quality.. supposedly discontinued though?
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Old 26th January 2013, 02:44 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
I am always alittle weary of precise dates. But will try not to delve deep into it.

The best way to define a good blade on a jambiya/khanjar is to check how well the central ridge is formed. The thicker and larger it is the better the craftmanship. Yours is probably made of 2 sheet steel which is the lowest quality.. supposedly discontinued though?

Salaams A.alnakkas Well now that you mention it That is not the only way to define a good blade, moreover, there are numerous ways to view the most important part of the weapon~ First the dagger is held at the blade tip between two finger tips and a thumb.. lightly...If the blade is any good it will slowly slip from the grip. Second the blade may be struck with the flick of the index fingernail... wherupon if it going diiiinggg !! its no good but if it exudes a dull thud !! is the result then it is a superior blade. The next test is taste... dont ask me to describe this as its a personal thing ...but it is related to the smell test and that is a perfume of old herbs from an equally old shoe !...The scent of the souk... which apparently permeates a good old blade. After and amongst all that I agree that viewing the blade construction is important and the well formed ridge is obviously a good indicator...Im just off to the souk and may well shoot a half dozen Yemeni dagger lookalikes and some other blades.... (which after half an hour of searching I discovered absolutely nothing except blades as you were describing made of 2 sheets which are awful... ah well.)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 26th January 2013 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 26th January 2013, 03:09 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams A.alnakkas Well now that you mention it That is not the only way to define a good blade, moreover, there are numerous ways to view the most important part of the weapon~ First the dagger is held at the blade tip between two finger tips and a thumb.. lightly...If the blade is any good it will slowly slip from the grip. Second the blade may be struck with the flick of the index fingernail... wherupon if it going diiiinggg !! its no good but if it exudes a dull thud !! is the result then it is a superior blade. The next test is taste... dont ask me to describe this as its a personal thing ...but it is related to the smell test and that is a perfume of old herbs from an equally old shoe !...The scent of the souk... which apparently permeates a good old blade. After and amongst all that I agree that viewing the blade construction is important and the well formed ridge is obviously a good indicator...Im just off to the souk and may well shoot a half dozen Yemeni dagger lookalikes and some other blades.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
I always thought that the dull thud is the sound of a hollowed 2 sheet steel blade :P
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Old 26th January 2013, 03:09 PM   #14
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Hi,
Without any aspirations (I donīt have knowledge about jambiyas), let me just join this opportunity and share the picture of the only one jambiya from Arabian peninsula I have. This jambiya without sheath and belt was bought in Addis Ababa in cca 1996. I was not able to clean it - but I like it as it is...
Regards,
Martin
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Old 26th January 2013, 03:38 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky
Hi,
Without any aspirations (I donīt have knowledge about jambiyas), let me just join this opportunity and share the picture of the only one jambiya from Arabian peninsula I have. This jambiya without sheath and belt was bought in Addis Ababa in cca 1996. I was not able to clean it - but I like it as it is...
Regards,
Martin

Salaams Martin Lubojacky There you have a Yemeni dagger under an Omani Terrs. The buckler shield favoured by Omanis.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 26th January 2013, 09:28 PM   #16
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I updated the photo of the jambiya I cleaned up the silver also.
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Old 26th January 2013, 09:40 PM   #17
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Very nice silver work! could you take some zooms of it? Whats your impressions on the quality of the silverwork?

The hilt is low quality, but what about the blade?

I have a similar example with a gold plated silver scabbard with Arabian script on it.. appears to be names of Imams. Will take some photos tommorow morning as its dark here ;-)
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Old 26th January 2013, 10:00 PM   #18
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Lotfy

This is a typical quality jambiya for the man in the street. Mid 1970-80s as you stated the hilt is lower standard but the blade seems solid. Of course it can't compare with the older examples in my collection.
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Old 27th January 2013, 11:46 AM   #19
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Here is mine. I replaced the blade with a rhino one. The other is very poor quality and is not authentic to the scabbard anyways :P
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Old 27th January 2013, 04:02 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
Here is mine. I replaced the blade with a rhino one. The other is very poor quality and is not authentic to the scabbard anyways :P

Salaams A.alnakkas Are there any stamps on the back of the buckle or belt buttons ? The item looks fine and likely to be a masters work... pre 48. Replacing the hilt/dagger was a good move and is what local people do all the time in the Yemen; thus upgrading the weapon.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note extracted from http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=JAMBIA; see #34

Quote. "Jewish silversmiths used to have Muslim and Jewish customers, they also used to work for the royal Muslims, working specially with gold instead of the usual silver. These jewelers also worked doing decoration for the daggers worn by Muslims but not by the Jewish men. This decoration includes some parts of the dagger like amulets and other accessories used with the belt and the djambia.

Itīs an interesting point that some of the jewelers were rabbis, they used to study the sacred texts and also dedicate their life to silversmithing. What i find very interesting is that, as they were students of the Kabalah and the Bible, they knew the symbolic meaning if the designs, their amuletic connotations and their connection to the Kabalistic texts. The fine techniques used in the creation of Yemeni jewellery was passed generation after generation as family secrets.

During the last Imam rule of Yemen, some Jewish silvermiths were called to teach their knowledge to Muslim jewelers, as most of the Jewish community was leaving the country to go to The Holy Land. Nowadays there are some newly Jewish style jewels, but the original antique ones show the finest techniques, like the Bedihi granulation and the finest examples of Bawsani filigree". Unquote

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Old 27th January 2013, 11:24 PM   #21
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Salaam Ibrahim,

The work on my jambiya's scabbard is not Jewish work.

Its good quality and seems to be attributed as worn by the Ashraaf of Yemen.
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Old 28th January 2013, 08:13 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
Salaam Ibrahim,

The work on my jambiya's scabbard is not Jewish work.

Its good quality and seems to be attributed as worn by the Ashraaf of Yemen.

Salaams A.alnakkas . It is indeed excellent quality. Why do you not think it is Jewish work? It would be interesting to hear so that others looking in on the thread get a bit of knowledge on the subject to go with the picture.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 28th January 2013 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 28th January 2013, 08:56 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams A.alnakkas . It is indeed excellent quality. Why do you not think it is Jewish work? It would be interesting to hear so that others looking in on the thread get a bit of knowledge on the subject to go with the picture.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
I always thought they make good granulation/filigree work and not work like mine. Though it could be?

Anyways, the script contains references to Allah (common between Muslims and Jews) but the mention of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) which I dont expect Jews to mention. But its all possible :-)
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Old 28th January 2013, 09:24 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
I always thought they make good granulation/filigree work and not work like mine. Though it could be?

Anyways, the script contains references to Allah (common between Muslims and Jews) but the mention of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) which I dont expect Jews to mention. But its all possible :-)

Salaams I agree in part but note; Quote. "Jewish silversmiths used to have Muslim and Jewish customers, they also used to work for the royal Muslims, working specially with gold instead of the usual silver. These jewelers also worked doing decoration for the daggers worn by Muslims but not by the Jewish men. This decoration includes some parts of the dagger like amulets and other accessories used with the belt and the djambia'. Unquote.

What I find is that the information is thin on the ground and with the passage of time it will become thinner and eventually vanish. I wondered if there were any stamps on the Buckle etc and rather hoped for someone with an eye for Saudi and Yemeni work to take a broad look at the Jewish Yemeni craftsmanship. At the same time I hope to persuade fellow post originators to place a fair degree of detail and lightweight research around their submissions so as to encourage and promote the pictures which too often contain little or no background.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 28th January 2013, 09:52 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams I agree in part but note; Quote. "Jewish silversmiths used to have Muslim and Jewish customers, they also used to work for the royal Muslims, working specially with gold instead of the usual silver. These jewelers also worked doing decoration for the daggers worn by Muslims but not by the Jewish men. This decoration includes some parts of the dagger like amulets and other accessories used with the belt and the djambia'. Unquote.

What I find is that the information is thin on the ground and with the passage of time it will become thinner and eventually vanish. I wondered if there were any stamps on the Buckle etc and rather hoped for someone with an eye for Saudi and Yemeni work to take a broad look at the Jewish Yemeni craftsmanship. At the same time I hope to persuade fellow post originators to place a fair degree of detail and lightweight research around their submissions so as to encourage and promote the pictures which too often contain little or no background.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
I cant be sure about stamps in the back. It has recent cloth covering at the back. Will try to check if I can move it abit.

I had in mind that it could be a special order by the Muslim owner. It is all possible really.

I have a picture of a thouma with an Iraqi niello work (precisely Iraqi work) it belongs to one of the shaikhs of Hashid and has a nice Saifani hilt. There is alot of variations of people making these..

Cant post the photo from my iphone so will do it from my pc when I am home.
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Old 28th January 2013, 09:59 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
I cant be sure about stamps in the back. It has recent cloth covering at the back. Will try to check if I can move it abit.

I had in mind that it could be a special order by the Muslim owner. It is all possible really.

I have a picture of a thouma with an Iraqi niello work (precisely Iraqi work) it belongs to one of the shaikhs of Hashid and has a nice Saifani hilt. There is alot of variations of people making these..

Cant post the photo from my iphone so will do it from my pc when I am home.

Salaams A.alnakkas ... Good; Excellent ! Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:11 PM   #27
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Here it is; I was wrong it belongs to the shaikh of Bakail. As you can see the niello work is not like the older Yemeni one, even though it copies the old Yemeni niello writings but is of better quality. The scenery is that of the dijla with river boats and some Iraqi monuments. I have seen identical work on daggers coming out of Iraq with gold coins etc.
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Old 28th January 2013, 07:34 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
Here it is; I was wrong it belongs to the shaikh of Bakail. As you can see the niello work is not like the older Yemeni one, even though it copies the old Yemeni niello writings but is of better quality. The scenery is that of the dijla with river boats and some Iraqi monuments. I have seen identical work on daggers coming out of Iraq with gold coins etc.

Salaams A.alnakkas Remarkable and very confusing at the same time... There must be quite a story behind this since how did the Iraqi people tie up with Yemeni style Jambias...Is this a Bedouin linkage? I'm sure the answer is straight forward but perhaps you can outline what transpired ...Although I am familiar with neillo I have never seen this style before.

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Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 28th January 2013, 08:01 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams A.alnakkas Remarkable and very confusing at the same time... There must be quite a story behind this since how did the Iraqi people tie up with Yemeni style Jambias...Is this a Bedouin linkage? I'm sure the answer is straight forward but perhaps you can outline what transpired ...Although I am familiar with neillo I have never seen this style before.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
Well Bakail as far as I know does not have a branch in Iraq. Perhaps the shaikh must have commissioned an Iraqi worker to make it, or maybe it was a gift.
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Old 29th January 2013, 02:47 PM   #30
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Well Bakail as far as I know does not have a branch in Iraq. Perhaps the shaikh must have commissioned an Iraqi worker to make it, or maybe it was a gift.

Salaams Can you give a brief rendition so that we can see the Bakail regional disposition... I was looking at "Tribes of the Euphrates" and trying to trace the provenance... Is this a Yemeni tribe?

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Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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