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Old 12th November 2016, 12:06 PM   #1
Cerjak
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Default Marks on Walloon sword for id.

O.L.106 cm ; blade L. 91 cm; blade width at hilt 3.4 cm.
Passau wolf in the the two sides.
Any comment on it would be welcome.
Best
Cerjak
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Old 12th November 2016, 01:48 PM   #2
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I think the mark under a crown with threes stars/crosses is probably the townmark of Amsterdam/NL
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Old 12th November 2016, 02:12 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado26
I think the mark under a crown with threes stars/crosses is probably the townmark of Amsterdam/NL
corrado26
Exactly!

Rotate the image 90 degrees counterclockwise and you get a shield with triple "x" and a crown (partially ground) on top.

Amsterdam.
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Old 12th November 2016, 04:08 PM   #4
Jim McDougall
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I think the mark on the quillon is termed the kleeblatt and represents a clover, but need to get into notes for more. In any case it was often on the quillons of these Dutch swords. The running wolf is interesting as there were a number of Solingen smiths who left and went to the Netherlands as well as those going to Spain, England, Russia.
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Old 12th November 2016, 05:56 PM   #5
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Thank you all for your answer about the marks so it is a dutch wallone ,

Best
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Old 13th November 2016, 12:21 PM   #6
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The belief is that these walloon swords are made in Solingen, as evidenced by the fact that some swords have Solingen maker marks.
This is supported by the running wolf, typical for Solingen in the first half of the 17th century.

almost all walloon swords of this type bear an Amsterdam town mark and a flower on the quillon final. This flower mark can be a mark of Solingen Smith.
fe Johannes Kirschbaum has a three petalled flower.

most of those walloon swords are signed with Sahagun or misspellings like
sahagom sachgom Sahacun ea but not made by this famous swordsmith of toledo.the name Sahagun was only used to designate a certain Quality.


These swords were made on commission for amsterdam arms Dealers in great numbers. It is an assumption that the French captured These swords
in 1672-73 in the Netherlands and introduced the epee Wallone in the French army.


a nice Detail is that the pommel is hollow and made of two halves.

best,
jasper
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Old 13th November 2016, 07:28 PM   #7
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Jasper,
It does seem according to what I have in notes that many Walloons indeed had Solingen blades, but were assembled in Koln. The crowned triple 'X' is the Amsterdam city control mark and perhaps some of the blades produced might have included that stamp if specifically for that chamber (of the 6) in Holland.
This is compellingly in accord with the running wolf mark on the blade, however I am curious on the larger number of blades which were produced in Solingen using the spurious SAHAGUM name. It seems that these typically were destined northward, and in some cases seemed to suggest almost a 'brand' in the manner that ANDREA FERARA blades were destined for the Scots.
I have seen noted that the distinctive four petal 'kleeblatt' is characteristically on the quillon on virtually all Dutch Walloons.

I am wondering if this four petal stamp is indeed on all, if not most Dutch Walloons, and would this convention have been placed at assembly in Koln along with the stamp or mark of the intended chamber to which the sword was destined?

If Solingen smiths did go to Holland, where might they have worked? or is their departure in the groups of smiths leaving Solingen not accurate?

I appreciate your help on these questions as it helps update and correct my notes, which are admittedly often a mess.
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Old 13th November 2016, 07:40 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
The belief is that these walloon swords are made in Solingen, as evidenced by the fact that some swords have Solingen maker marks.
This is supported by the running wolf, typical for Solingen in the first half of the 17th century.

almost all walloon swords of this type bear an Amsterdam town mark and a flower on the quillon final. This flower mark can be a mark of Solingen Smith.
fe Johannes Kirschbaum has a three petalled flower.

most of those walloon swords are signed with Sahagun or misspellings like
sahagom sachgom Sahacun ea but not made by this famous swordsmith of toledo.the name Sahagun was only used to designate a certain Quality.


These swords were made on commission for amsterdam arms Dealers in great numbers. It is an assumption that the French captured These swords
in 1672-73 in the Netherlands and introduced the epee Wallone in the French army.


a nice Detail is that the pommel is hollow and made of two halves.

best,
jasper
Jasper,
Thank you for your well detailed comment.
"a nice Detail is that the pommel is hollow and made of two halves."
How you can see it ?
best
Jean-Luc
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Old 14th November 2016, 08:55 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerjak
Jasper,
Thank you for your well detailed comment.
"a nice Detail is that the pommel is hollow and made of two halves."
How you can see it ?
best
Jean-Luc
Jean-Luc,

by xray or you can knock on it.
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Last edited by cornelistromp; 14th November 2016 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 14th November 2016, 09:02 AM   #10
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Jasper

Really amazing ! From where did you find this document ?

Best

Jean-Luc
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Old 14th November 2016, 09:08 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Jasper,
It does seem according to what I have in notes that many Walloons indeed had Solingen blades, but were assembled in Koln. The crowned triple 'X' is the Amsterdam city control mark and perhaps some of the blades produced might have included that stamp if specifically for that chamber (of the 6) in Holland.
This is compellingly in accord with the running wolf mark on the blade, however I am curious on the larger number of blades which were produced in Solingen using the spurious SAHAGUM name. It seems that these typically were destined northward, and in some cases seemed to suggest almost a 'brand' in the manner that ANDREA FERARA blades were destined for the Scots.
I have seen noted that the distinctive four petal 'kleeblatt' is characteristically on the quillon on virtually all Dutch Walloons.

I am wondering if this four petal stamp is indeed on all, if not most Dutch Walloons, and would this convention have been placed at assembly in Koln along with the stamp or mark of the intended chamber to which the sword was destined?

If Solingen smiths did go to Holland, where might they have worked? or is their departure in the groups of smiths leaving Solingen not accurate?

I appreciate your help on these questions as it helps update and correct my notes, which are admittedly often a mess.
Hi Jim,


JP Puype dedicates the manufacture of this epee wallone to Solingen,see Attachement, Köln is very interesting, do you also have support for this.

all dutch epee wallones have the four petalled flower and the Amsterdam mark. other marks on this dutch type are not known to me
one exception is known to me, an epee Wallone ex Visser collection with Toledo TO mark, a running wolf and 1414 inscription, maybe the blade is a replacment blade.

I have no record of solingen blacksmith who went to the Netherlands, I know a few who went to spain. (a much better climate )

but... there was a lively arms trade between Amsterdam, solingen and Passau.

best,
Jasper
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Last edited by cornelistromp; 14th November 2016 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 14th November 2016, 02:16 PM   #12
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Hi Jasper,
Thank you so much for these responses and important information!
Along with Jean Luc, I am always amazed (and envious) at the detailed knowledge you share on so many aspects of these European swords.

In retracing notes which prompted my comment on the departure of many Solingen smiths to other countries, typically citing the disastrous "Thirty Years War" (1618-48) as one of the reasons, I find that Holland was not demonstrably among the places they went. It is however important to note that England was one location (Hounslow) and as Aylward (" The Small Sword in England") has described, there were profound connections between these countries (politically and therefore other as well). Though this really has no bearing on production of the Dutch blades discussed here, it is important to note the similarities and cross influences of English and Dutch 'walloons'.
These are well described in "British Military Swords" (Stuart Mowbray, 2013) .

In that book, Mowbray comments on the SAHAGUM marking which I mentioned earlier, and that name on these 17th c blades almost invariably suggests it is Dutch (p.91).

The excerpt you have attached here regarding the Amsterdam city mark is outstanding!! Thank you. Which reference is it from? so that I may add to my notes (which clearly need revamping) .

On the Koln (Cologne) reference, I could not locate the specific source, but in further rechecking think that it was referring to the fact that while Solingen indeed produced blades from earlier times, there were restrictions on the assembly of finished weapons. Apparently these were put together in Cologne and from there exported.....thence often termed 'Cologne swords' .
Source: "History of the Solingen Cutlery Industry", Siegfried Rosenkaimer, in 'Blades Guide to Knives and Their Values'.

Naturally this does not specify that Dutch swords alone, or in any fashion were assembled in Cologne, but may have been the source of my suggestion from notes .

Regarding the anomalous Walloon sans the four petal quillon mark, and the running wolf, TO mark and 1414....
While we have it seems long thought that these crowned TO shields were to represent Toledo, Mowbray (op. cit. p250) discusses a rapier in England with one of these marks. Here he claims that this particular mark, rather than representing (other than Toledo) a legitimate mark used in CAINO, a blade producing center in Brescia, northern Italy .

The 1414 is of course a palindrome with talismanically 'lucky' numbers along with the omnipresent 'running wolf'. While of course suggesting Solingen, where these were commonly on blades, it is interesting that they are combined with the TO mark and as noted, associated in English context as described in Mowbray .

The blade is as you suggest, probably a replacement and offers some interesting context.

Thank you again,
Jim
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Old 14th November 2016, 03:45 PM   #13
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@Jean Luc, what is written in the fuller.... Sahagun?

@Jim
It is possible mowbray refers to Dutch because Sahagun and other spellings of it occur on these wallone swords, nevertheless they are made in Germany.
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Old 14th November 2016, 04:25 PM   #14
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jasper,

Yes with good eyes no doubt it's Sahagun !
I will pm you the hd pictures.Thank you Japer you made a complete analysis for this sword .We even have the original draw !
Best
Jean-Luc
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Old 14th November 2016, 04:55 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
@Jean Luc, what is written in the fuller.... Sahagun?

@Jim
It is possible mowbray refers to Dutch because Sahagun and other spellings of it occur on these wallone swords, nevertheless they are made in Germany.

Actually Jasper, as I have continued searching throughout the morning here for hours now, I think that is exactly right! Most other sources and reading have consistently stated these were made in Germany FOR the Dutch.
Even when the French finally adopted these 'Walloon' swords into their M1679 regulation patterns, they were acquiring them THROUGH the Amsterdam arms brokers who had them from Solingen.

I found some detail suggesting that the 'kleeblatt' (clover leaf or quatrefoil) on the quillon may have been placed by the French as swords being sent to their allies in campaigns of latter 17th c. but it seems that it was indeed placed in Amsterdam.

It does seem consistant to me that the SAHAGUM on the blade is very much Dutch, which makes sense as Spanish quality must have been firmly established in the Netherlands during Spanish rule. However it seems a paradox as the Dutch detested 'Papal' rule.

It is amazing how much history is learned with these faithful old swords as our guides!!!

PS I found the page you attached in the Leger Museum article, thank you again for including it before.

Last edited by Jim McDougall; 14th November 2016 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 15th November 2016, 07:08 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
PS I found the page you attached in the Leger Museum article, thank you again for including it before.
i took it from JP Puype -blanke wapens p 47, the original drawing is from Michel petard.


best,
jasper
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Old 19th November 2016, 09:06 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
i took it from JP Puype -blanke wapens p 47, the original drawing is from Michel petard.


best,
jasper
Thank you Jasper, much appreciated.
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Old 8th December 2016, 01:42 PM   #18
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Not knowing a lot about these swords I have to say what a great thread this is. The knowledge displayed by Forum on this subject is very much respected. Thank you for the fine detail and a superb thread. I ran into another example at http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/coll...e/? irn=249330 and at http://myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=13795 I was particularly interested in the play with numbers noted by Jim and on another thread on Forum at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=walloon and further detail at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=walloon

My question is ...Since SAHAGUN appears to be a Spanish sword making family name ~ Has the name been copied onto Solingen swords as a measure of quality...like Andrea Ferrera etc...?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

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Old 31st May 2022, 02:00 PM   #19
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Quote:
The 1414 is of course a palindrome with talismanically 'lucky' numbers along with the omnipresent 'running wolf'. While of course suggesting Solingen, where these were commonly on blades, it is interesting that they are combined with the TO mark and as noted, associated in English context as described in Mowbray .
Could this be a reference to Exodus 14:14?

"The Lord will fight for you; you need only to be still."
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Old 31st May 2022, 02:49 PM   #20
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That's a good idea. I've often read that they're cabalistic numbers, but with no explanation as to why *those* particular numbers were chosen. I like that suggestion.
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Old 31st May 2022, 06:08 PM   #21
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Both numbers 1414 and 1441 appear together with the Passau wolf in XVI century sword blades. These magic numbers are multiples and combinations of the number "7", a divine number, thought to be a cry for God's help, like the Arabs used the "Allah il Allah". Reference to the bible ', from the book of Job (old testament) chapter 14 paragraph 14: Do you believe that dead a man will live again? Every day that i spend now in this war, i'm waiting until my mutation arrives.. Luther, well heard in XVI century German, interpreted that from the Greek as: When a man dies he will be reborn. So i will continue to fight until my time comes.
See here a XVI century Portuguese Colonial sword with the magic number "1441" and the Passau woolf engraved on the blade (Collection Rainer Daehnhardt).


.
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Old 31st May 2022, 06:17 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by werecow View Post
Could this be a reference to Exodus 14:14?

"The Lord will fight for you; you need only to be still."
Quite possibly. I first encountered the idea that these numbers could refer to bible verses in a museum in Northern Sweden, and find it plausible. Not sure why the colon doesn’t appear though. Bible verses were familiar with most in the Protestant Northern Europe (including Amsterdam) and a reference like that would have been understood at the time.

It could also refer to John 14:14: ”12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
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Old 31st May 2022, 06:22 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando View Post
Both numbers 1414 and 1441 appear together with the Passau wolf in XVI century sword blades. These magic numbers are multiples and combinations of the number "7", a divine number, thought to be a cry for God's help, like the Arabs used the "Allah il Allah". Reference to the bible ', from the book of Job (old testament) chapter 14 paragraph 14: Do you believe that dead a man will live again? Every day that i spend now in this war, i'm waiting until my mutation arrives.. Luther, well heard in XVI century German, interpreted that from the Greek as: When a man dies he will be reborn. So i will continue to fight until my time comes.
See here a XVI century Portuguese Colonial sword with the magic number "1441" and the Passau woolf engraved on the blade (Collection Rainer Daehnhardt).
.
Probably a better explanation than I offered in the previous post. We can’t be sure but seems plausible.
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Old 1st June 2022, 03:59 PM   #24
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It's been a kind of Walloon-themed week for me. I've been looking to acquire one of these recently, and today by sheer coincidence I ran into one with a scabbard at the Lakenhal museum here in Leiden. It's missing one of the guard plates, but it's an impressive sword to see in person. It has sahagum and a stamp on the blade, the running wolf, and I think I saw the flower on the bottom of the quillon bulb. They even made a copy of it in glow-in-the-dark plaster! My phone/camera ran out of batteries (and is terrible in low lighting anyway) but next time I'm there I'll take a few more closeups of the markings.
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Old 6th June 2022, 04:12 PM   #25
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I have also one of those walloon swords made for the French, with the Solingen wolf and 1414.

What I have never seen before is a pommel like the one this has.
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Old 6th June 2022, 08:35 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by midelburgo View Post
I have also one of those walloon swords made for the French, with the Solingen wolf and 1414.

What I have never seen before is a pommel like the one this has.
I think the Pommel is new
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Old 12th August 2022, 02:00 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp View Post
Hi Jim,


JP Puype dedicates the manufacture of this epee wallone to Solingen,see Attachement, Köln is very interesting, do you also have support for this.

all dutch epee wallones have the four petalled flower and the Amsterdam mark. other marks on this dutch type are not known to me
one exception is known to me, an epee Wallone ex Visser collection with Toledo TO mark, a running wolf and 1414 inscription, maybe the blade is a replacment blade.
I bought a Walloon sword of this type recently (with a bit of help from ulfberth who helped confirm its authenticity), right after I saw the one at the Lakenhal museum here in Leiden. A bit more patina than the one in this thread, but most of it superficial, and I kind of like this look (and I like that it's quite sturdy).

One thing I found interesting, and the reason I'm adding it to this thread, is that it is lacking the kleeblatt on the quillons. It is still rated tripple-x, however , and has "xxx S A H A G V M xx" markings and of course the Wolf of Passau on both sides.

(As usual, sorry about the slightly jittery pictures. I only have my phone's camera and it seems to be literally impossible to take a picture that isn't motion blurred or out of focus.)
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Old 12th August 2022, 05:31 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by werecow View Post
... I only have my phone's camera and it seems to be literally impossible to take a picture that isn't motion blurred or out of focus.)...
That depends on one's phone .
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