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Old 24th September 2021, 08:17 PM   #1
Merenti
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Default OAKSHOTT Typ X 🤔

Hello from germany.

My name is Markus and i come from germany.

I collect edged weapons from Europe until 1700.

I came across the forum by chance and am looking for like-minded people and experts who share my hobby. Also very happy to have contacts in Germany.

I wanted to ask you if you could tell me something about originality.

It's supposed to be an OAKSHOTT type x. I'm not sure about the pommel though. this consists of one part

Total length = 98 cm, blade length a good 85 cm, blade thickness approx. 5 mm, blade width ad cross-guard 52 mm, weight 980 grams
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Old 25th September 2021, 11:29 AM   #2
fernando
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Welcome to the forum Markus .
Let us see what the knowledged members have to say about your sword.
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Old 28th September 2021, 04:32 PM   #3
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Welcome to the forum Markus .
Let us see what the knowledged members have to say about your sword.
Hey Fernando thank you.

I hope the experts can help me.

The patina looks great and the proportions are right.

The pommel I find very strange
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Old 28th September 2021, 10:31 PM   #4
Philip
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Markus, thanks for posting this. Could you please provide a photo showing the entire sword in a single direct view?
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Old 30th September 2021, 09:08 AM   #5
Merenti
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Markus, thanks for posting this. Could you please provide a photo showing the entire sword in a single direct view?
hey Philip, unfortunately I only get these photos from the seller
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Old 30th September 2021, 01:52 PM   #6
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Hello,

Really nice item !!
I find the pommel strange too but the patina seems genuine,
does the seller sell it as 100% antique guarantee...
depends on how much you paid for...
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Old 30th September 2021, 08:15 PM   #7
Jim McDougall
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While I suspect that the notable silence on this presented example is due to the fact that it seems to be prospectively involved in a sales transaction, I would at least try to take advantage of what it 'APPEARS' to be.

Though the corrosion activity 'APPEARS' to correspond to excavated examples of early swords, we are of course aware of less than authentic examples which have occurred in many cases.

I always enjoy learning from examples presented here on the forum, so I am taking the opportunity to observe what historic categories this one 'might' be from, without any conclusive assessment.

Oakeshott type X (Oakeshott, "Archaeology of Weapons", 1960), as noted, does seem closest to the category this sword follows, however the blade seems to remain rather straight along its length rather than having a gradual taper distally.
According to Oakeshott (p.203), after 1100 swords were basically alike, although with infinite variations. This is understandable as the numbers of makers and no real standardization or regulation would create such case.
In the typology, the blades shown are really all remarkably alike with exception of central fuller length.

It has been noted that pommel seems unusual. Actually it seems to correspond well to type A (Oakeshott op.cit.p.224) which is shown to period 980AD to 1120AD, with more rarely type X extending with these to c.1200AD). These comparisons are noted to derive from the Behmer & Petersen systems of typology. These pommels seem to have evolved from 'Viking' types.

The very 'squared' looking crossguard corresponds to fig. 113, #3 (p.232, Oakeshott, op.cit.) noted from c.1100-1350. Here it is noted of course, that again, hilts and their fixtures were largely of personal taste or I would think local or group preferences.

In "Swords of the Viking Age" (Ian Pierce, 2002 with Dr. Lee Jones and Ewart Oakeshott) on p.106 a sword with blade similar illustrates a Viking sword from c. 10th c. with such swords from Norway and that period. There are of course numerous others.

So purely as 'devils advocate' for the sake of discussion of swords of this 'type', I add this information from my own study just done for this purpose alone. I hope possibly this would be possible completely objectively focused on the sword type represented and the characteristics, without any assessment of integrity of the example presented.
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Old 1st October 2021, 10:09 AM   #8
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thank you very much for your execution! Here are some new pictures.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 07:45 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merenti View Post
thank you very much for your execution! Here are some new pictures.
Thank you for the opportunity to look at this sword. As I noted, I enjoy examining these kinds of examples to study the basic dynamics and features overall. Obviously one cannot exact authenticity from photos, despite how compelling they may be.

I am curious, as I am clearly no expert, and since you are a collector of these weapons, what are your thoughts, and insights in observing this example ?
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Old 3rd October 2021, 01:13 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Merenti View Post
hey Philip, unfortunately I only get these photos from the seller
is the sword offered as an original or a recent reproduction?
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Old 4th October 2021, 07:20 PM   #11
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yes, the seller sells it as an original. I think the sword is very harmonious, but I think the pommel is funny. it is folded instead of made from one piece

the patina also looks incredibly good
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Old 5th October 2021, 08:34 AM   #12
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for me (personal opinion) the sword is less convincing, certainly patina means nothing in it is easy to forge. in the current market 99% of the medieval swords on offer are recent reproductions. more important than ever for a purchase of a sword is a verifiable provenance, ie provenance with proof.
hope it helps.
best,
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Old 5th October 2021, 02:04 PM   #13
Lee
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Originally Posted by cornelistromp View Post
in the current market 99% of the medieval swords on offer are recent reproductions.
Having had the privilege of handling a number of medieval swords, authentic and not, I must concur with cornelistromp's statement above. Though the statistics strongly point in the unfortunate direction whenever the question is asked, as a practical matter I almost never can decide authenticity with adequate certainty from images alone and I do not wish to risk condemning the authentic with a 'knee-jerk' denunciation based on statistical probabilities. My own collecting days are probably over owing to old age and those discouraging statistics. The reproductions these days may be so proficiently prepared that I expect, more and more, old publicly published evidence of provenance, preferably with illustration, will become increasingly critical in setting a comfort level.
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Old 5th October 2021, 06:29 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Lee View Post
Having had the privilege of handling a number of medieval swords, authentic and not, I must concur with cornelistromp's statement above. Though the statistics strongly point in the unfortunate direction whenever the question is asked, as a practical matter I almost never can decide authenticity with adequate certainty from images alone and I do not wish to risk condemning the authentic with a 'knee-jerk' denunciation based on statistical probabilities. My own collecting days are probably over owing to old age and those discouraging statistics. The reproductions these days may be so proficiently prepared that I expect, more and more, old publicly published evidence of provenance, preferably with illustration, will become increasingly critical in setting a comfort level.

I totally concur with Jasper and Lee, the odds of this being genuine are profoundly slim and the industrious 'charlatans' who manufacture 'copies' have become too good.
This has confounded the efforts of those of us who wish to study the history of these weapons, and taken away the potential for true scholars and collectors to own the actual weapons from those times.

Lee, I am with you on collecting days being over, with old age and diminished resources that may be gone, but research and learning never stops
Fortunately you had the wonderful experiences of collecting and actually knowing Mr. Oakeshott personally, which gave us the amazing resource you, he and Mr.Pierce produced, "Swords in the Viking Age".
With these references we can still learn on these swords.,
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Old 5th October 2021, 09:10 PM   #15
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While the folded pommel is odd I feel it could argue in the direction of authenticity. When iron and steel where rare and valuable smiths would do what ever they could to reuse waste pieces, whereas today a forger will simply select an appropriate piece of bar from stock.

The fact that folded pommels are uncommon argues that a forger wouldn't go to the effort of making one if it would detract from the "authenticity" of the piece.

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