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Old 17th April 2021, 10:33 PM   #91
Ren Ren
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Thank you! The hanging ring (or lack thereof) is an important part of the scabbard design. But the back of the scabbard is not often seen in the photo.
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Old 20th April 2021, 03:27 PM   #92
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Thank you! The hanging ring (or lack thereof) is an important part of the scabbard design. But the back of the scabbard is not often seen in the photo.
additional: for the more richer ones, a leather belt was an option. Multiple functions:
1. to protect the clothes when on display for offical celebrations and occassions
2. support carrying plural weapons ( pistols, bichaqs and yataghans)
3. provide support and relief of the total weight
4. comfort when riding a horse ( and avoid risk losing a valuable weapon)

@Detlef: see, a nice example of a yataghan without the fancy decoration of coral and stones but simple handle of metal and bone only
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Old 21st April 2021, 04:01 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gp
additional: for the more richer ones, a leather belt was an option. Multiple functions:
1. to protect the clothes when on display for offical celebrations and occassions
2. support carrying plural weapons ( pistols, bichaqs and yataghans)
3. provide support and relief of the total weight
4. comfort when riding a horse ( and avoid risk losing a valuable weapon)

@Detlef: see, a nice example of a yataghan without the fancy decoration of coral and stones but simple handle of metal and bone only
Gp, I could be wrong but the hilt on that yataghan looks like ivory to me. Very nice tooling on the leather pouch and belt.
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Old 21st April 2021, 08:58 PM   #94
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Gp, I could be wrong but the hilt on that yataghan looks like ivory to me. Very nice tooling on the leather pouch and belt.
Hello Ian,

it could well be an ivory one. If your expertise determines it as ivory I shall not contradict. Most of the Balkan yataghans (this one is from Dalmatia) were made from buffalo or ox bone but a few of ivory. My knowledge of the latter is very limited.
Indeed quite some craftmanship on the leather but that has a long tradition in that region ( as with their filigree)
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Old 24th April 2021, 06:16 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by gp
new family member...
unfortunately no scabbard but interesting the "w" or "m" type of motives one normally finds on the copper scabbard, are here found on the ferrule


Total length: 28 cm. - 11 inch
Blade length: 18 cm. - 7 inch
Handle made from (buffalo or ox) bone

your comments please...thank you
A very interesting new family member
If it were not for the typical Balkan design of the hilt with brass inserts, then in the shape of the blade and fullers, I would have seen a Surmene knife.

Last edited by Saracen; 24th April 2021 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 27th April 2021, 11:13 AM   #96
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A very interesting new family member
If it were not for the typical Balkan design of the hilt with brass inserts, then in the shape of the blade and fullers, I would have seen a Surmene knife.
you are not 100% but 1000% correct and exactly the same was my thought as well.
And both of us might be wright and wrong as the determination of origin is indeed not based upon pure mathematical science, not being the same of or no deduction of certain region's characteristics.

Please allow me to elaborate: it would be too simple to explain it by the interaction of people moving around in the Ottoman empire as blacksmith both in the Ottoman empire and in Europe as well, were neither well to do nor had the ambition or freedom to move around...even if they would wish to.
In general they would earn a good living where they were in the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th century.

A small exception could however have caused this : between 1860 and 1878, also in 1918 the Ottoman empire was shaken and quite a lot of people moved, some forcibly (a form of ethnic cleansing) whilst others voluntarily moved from east to west and west to east; from the Balkans to the Ottoman / Turkish territory or vice versa as states were created in the Balkans
Obviously talking with them their cultural heritage. So you can find in present Turkey quite a lot peoples from plural national backgrounds / roots (Bosnian but also Greek). And the otherway around from the Black Sea erea, so also the Surmene / Sürmene region folks might have or had moved to the Balkans and with the cold weapons tradition in Bosnia it was easy for a Blacksmith Master /Majster to fit in and perhaps occassionally produce such a dagger. Still it doesn not exclude that it is either a fake or a Surmene copy of a Bosniak of that time....

Although I know a lot about the "Bosniaks" you can never be sure but I was more than willing & prepared to take the risk and add it to my collection. As you said it has too many details which could place it in Bosnia....if not...hard luck but still a very nice dagger Thank you for your comment, which is highly appreciated and confirmed my thoughts as well :
well done and my respect !!!

Last edited by gp; 27th April 2021 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 2nd May 2021, 06:55 PM   #97
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A small exception could however have caused this : between 1860 and 1878, also in 1918 the Ottoman empire was shaken and quite a lot of people moved, some forcibly (a form of ethnic cleansing) whilst others voluntarily moved from east to west and west to east; from the Balkans to the Ottoman / Turkish territory or vice versa as states were created in the Balkans
Thank you for explaining this possible borrowing between Bosnian knife and Surmene knife.
Sometimes they have a very similar decor of the handle, but even the blade characteristic for of the surmene knife does not allow us to confidently determine their origin. It would be very interesting to know more about these similarities.
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Old 2nd May 2021, 08:32 PM   #98
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Thank you for explaining this possible borrowing between Bosnian knife and Surmene knife.
Sometimes they have a very similar decor of the handle, but even the blade characteristic for of the surmen knife does not allow us to confidently determine their origin. It would be very interesting to know more about these similarities.
I agree and also am looking for info or sources to learn more on this topic.
Most of my sources are from the former Yugoslavia / their successor states (Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia) also Bulgaria, Romania and Turkey...
but unfortunately the attention ( also by the Anglo-Saxon and German / Austrian authors of cold weapons ) focusses more to the "big" and more fancy ones likes yataghans and hardly or to a lesser degree on these kind of knives (bichaq in Turkish, kama and cakija in Slav languages).
90% of my info dates from publications between 1880 to 1980 and a few are recent ones but sadly nothing new or more on these types of "potential" cross-over ...and contacting folks in the mentioned regions does not result in much new info on the smaller knives...

Even authorities like Vejsil Ćurčić ( around the 1920ies) , Marija Šercer (around the 1970ies) and Tarik Kožo (around 2010ies) do not go into that detail sadly...

Last edited by gp; 2nd May 2021 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 2nd May 2021, 08:52 PM   #99
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to add more to the above, the newest cousin in my "Bosanceros"☺ collection.

Although it doesn't have the yataghan-like ears or curl with stubs which in combination with the bone handle and circular ornament are typical Bosnian, this one has a "flat"end of the handle as one sees with more Ottoman cold weapons but due to the handle's details ( red stone and circular ornament ) is certainly Bosnian..
The blade is 20 cm long and the writing in silver is 18.. and could be Sarajevo. It is made prior the Habsburg occupation I believe from around 1850 -1870.
Sadly no scabbard...
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Old 2nd May 2021, 09:35 PM   #100
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this one, with scabbard and blade 17 cm Sarajevo 1887 written in silver, looks like the white bone version of Gonzoadler's green one
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Last edited by gp; 2nd May 2021 at 09:49 PM.
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