Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 14th April 2021, 06:44 PM   #1
RSWORD
Member
 
RSWORD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 1,016
Default Translation Assistance with 18/19th century Ottoman Kilij

Hello. Am hoping to receive assistance with the extensive calligraphy on this Kilij which I think is circa 1750-1825. I have also included a picture of the tughra and hallmark. These marks show on the tang band, cross guard, all scabbard mounts as well as the hanging rings. These marks are very bold and quite visible so I think they were meant to be seen. I'm hoping the hallmarks and the inscriptions shed more light into this sword.

Thank you in advance.
Attached Images
      
RSWORD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th April 2021, 06:46 PM   #2
RSWORD
Member
 
RSWORD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 1,016
Default

Here are the additional inscriptions that run along the spine. Thank you again.
Attached Images
     
RSWORD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th April 2021, 08:11 PM   #3
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 3,168
Default

Very nice sword Rick. I look forward to hearing from our expert translators.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th April 2021, 02:28 AM   #4
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,714
Default

One part includes "Allah" in it, and another part says "Made in China"
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th April 2021, 11:26 PM   #5
Drabant1701
Member
 
Drabant1701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Sweden
Posts: 117
Default

That is a great looking sword. Good wootz to. I can not read the text. But is there a date near the crossuard? Its worn but I see 1211, 1796
Drabant1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th April 2021, 10:58 PM   #6
kwiatek
Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 128
Default

The upper inscription is the ubiquitous

لا فتا (فتى) الا علي لا سيف الا ذ[و] الفقار

“There is no hero but ‘Ali, no sword but Dhu’l-Fiqar”

The lower, long inscription is Qur’an 48:1-4

In the 5-pointed star is ما شاء الله

“What God wills (ma sha’a allah)”

The inscription on the other side in the cartouche next to the grip is

يا مفتح الابواب افتح لنا خير الباب

“O Opener of Doors, open for us the best of doors.”

The larger silver assay mark looks like the tughra of ‘Abdulaziz (r. 1861-76). I’d have to look at it with a magnifying glass to be completely sure. The smaller one is the sahh assay mark.
kwiatek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2021, 02:30 AM   #7
RSWORD
Member
 
RSWORD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 1,016
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian
Very nice sword Rick. I look forward to hearing from our expert translators.
Thank you Ian. I do as well.
RSWORD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2021, 02:31 AM   #8
RSWORD
Member
 
RSWORD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 1,016
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
One part includes "Allah" in it, and another part says "Made in China"
Thank you for your partial translation Jose. Nothing wrong with an Ottoman sword with strong Chinese connections!
RSWORD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2021, 02:32 AM   #9
RSWORD
Member
 
RSWORD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 1,016
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drabant1701
That is a great looking sword. Good wootz to. I can not read the text. But is there a date near the crossuard? Its worn but I see 1211, 1796
Hello. Yes, the wootz is clear and consistent throughout. Quite good for a kilij. Not sure about the date though.
RSWORD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2021, 02:35 AM   #10
RSWORD
Member
 
RSWORD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 1,016
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwiatek
The upper inscription is the ubiquitous

لا فتا (فتى) الا علي لا سيف الا ذ[و] الفقار

“There is no hero but ‘Ali, no sword but Dhu’l-Fiqar”

The lower, long inscription is Qur’an 48:1-4

In the 5-pointed star is ما شاء الله

“What God wills (ma sha’a allah)”

The inscription on the other side in the cartouche next to the grip is

يا مفتح الابواب افتح لنا خير الباب

“O Opener of Doors, open for us the best of doors.”

The larger silver assay mark looks like the tughra of ‘Abdulaziz (r. 1861-76). I’d have to look at it with a magnifying glass to be completely sure. The smaller one is the sahh assay mark.

Thank you very much Kwiatek! I greatly appreciate the translation assistance. It adds tremendously to the beauty of the sword and gives insight into the original owner and the religious texts that were important to them.
RSWORD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2021, 04:26 AM   #11
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering.
Posts: 3,549
Default

“There is ... no sword but Dhu’l-Fiqar” ...

Or is it? It could be read "I am Dhu’l-Fiqar." ...

It is a beauty too. Feel free to loan it to me for a few decades. I'll even let you pay the Postage.

Ref:Zulfiqar

Last edited by Ian; 19th April 2021 at 12:09 AM. Reason: Bit over the top, mate ...
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2021, 02:32 PM   #12
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 3,168
Default

Kwiatek, thank you for the translation. With regard to the 6-pointed star, can you tell us what the symbolism means? I note an "o" adjacent to each point--does this have some special significance.

Thanks,

Ian.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2021, 08:21 PM   #13
kwiatek
Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 128
Default

Pleasure.

Yes, it is a six-pointed star of course, not five as I wrote. As far as I remember it is normally associated with the Seal of Suleyman (Solomon)
kwiatek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2021, 09:44 PM   #14
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,714
Default

The six pointed star is usually the "Seal of Suliman" (Solomon) which is talismanic to ward off evil influences and demons.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2021, 12:04 AM   #15
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 3,168
Default

Thank you kwiatek and Battara.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.