Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 3rd December 2023, 05:22 PM   #1
SidJ
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 174
Default Bali keris holder use

Hello keris devotees
A quick question. How were Bali keris holders used traditionally? Were they kept outside the house entrance and used to hold the keris of visitors? Or were they used to hold the keris of the householder themselves? Or both? Was it considered impolite to ask a visitor to remove their keris if they came to your house in Bali? Finally is there any source material you can direc t me re the above? Theres lots on keris holders here but not.much in terms of their use within bali culture I can find. Thanks
SidJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2023, 02:56 PM   #2
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 6,995
Default

Hi Sid. This is indeed a very good question and a good subject for discussion. Unfortunately i cannot personally answer these questions. He is a link to a thread we had a while back showing some examples. Within that thread there is another link to a thread started by a person came to our forum because they were doing a research paper on these. I don't think they ever got back to us on their project or presented any final results.
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...i+keris+holder
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2023, 12:00 AM   #3
SidJ
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 174
Default

Thanks David
Strange no one seems to have any informed thoughts on this.
Best
Sid
SidJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2023, 04:37 AM   #4
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,251
Default

I cannot imagine anyone, no matter the culture having a Keris stand or other family heirloom, kept outside of their house where it would be accessible to any stranger who happened by.
Maybe this is a Western view of the practice, I don't know, but it seems that an object of power and familial reverence would not be left in an insecure place.
Could it be that the Keris holder would be for the use of Visitors and not for the Host?

(He shrugs)
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2023, 08:45 AM   #5
Bob A
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 400
Default

I believe the original series of questions to be so broad, while demonstrating an equally wide lack of information regarding the culture in question, that an effective answer might require volumes, and an equal measure of time and study.

It might seem at least slightly offensive to a person steeped in the keris culture to be confronted with a series of uncomprehending guesses; politeness would dictate an answer based on the expectation of the questioner, but the gap between the two seems quite wide, making that answer difficult to formulate.

Then too, sometimes silence is an answer, of sorts.

All very enigmatic.
Bob A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2023, 07:03 PM   #6
Bob A
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 400
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SidJ View Post
Stop being so tediously pompous and condescending for Gods sake. What an odious response. It was a simple question drafted in plain english. Get over yourself.
Thanks for the advice.
Bob A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2023, 11:59 PM   #7
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,649
Default

Your questions are well put Sid, but the problem is that over the last 100 years or so Balinese society & its mores have changed more than a little. If you can get hold of a copy of this book:-

https://brill.com/display/title/32970

it will open your eyes to what Bali was, compared to what it has now become.

The difference is enormous.

After the puputans a lot of the old cultural beliefs were explained away, and in a very short space of time, tourists and European artists influenced the societal style of Bali to a point where not only were many of the old ways abandoned, but they were forgotten too. Forgotten to the point where even the Gods & folk characters lost their identities.

Then we had Merdeka, and in order for the Balinese religion to be included as a recognised system of belief in the New Indonesia, it was forced to become monotheistic --- at least in its official form.

I have read somewhere or other that the totogan keris holders were used for guests to place their keris into, when they entered a house. I used to know of a house in the Ubud hinterland where the owner kept his family keris holders on the front verandah of his house. Last time I passed this house, those keris holders were gone.

I doubt that the idea of being impolite would have existed in Bali at the time when visitors were expected to remove a keris before entering a host's house. The Balinese character would see this as an insult, and in past times the way to remove insult was with blood. I tend to believe that entering to a house whilst bearing a keris would be tantamount to a challenge --- if indeed it was socially unacceptable to enter a house whilst wearing a keris.

As for some published source on the function of keris holders, I know of none, but there is ample material available that deals with Balinese society & religion, if one is prepared to devote time to a study of this published material, a good foundation for formulation of relevant hypotheticals can be constructed.

It is pretty much the same old story:- we do not learn the keris by studying the keris, we learn the keris by studying the society from which it comes.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2023, 02:07 AM   #8
SidJ
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 174
Default

Thank you Alan,
I am grateful indeed for your thoughts. For clarity my query related to the time before the Puputans when old Balinese culture was strong. Now we live in a largely homogenous world where one worldview sadly dominates. I am sure many will find your post insightful. Thanks again.
SidJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2023, 03:16 AM   #9
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,649
Default

Thanks Sid.

I possibly could have written more, but then we need to decide just where to stop with this sort of stuff.

But maybe a qualification will not go astray:- my comments apply very particularly to the Bali that an outsider will see, & even there, the requisite offerings are made every day by most people. If one is prepared to put in the time, and to live for extended periods in out of the way places, then they might, if they are lucky, find a different Bali.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2023, 11:43 AM   #10
SidJ
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 174
Default

I was reflecting on Balinese culture and despite the huge changes in the previous century the people are still by relative measures deeply spiritual and practice all sorts of prayers for many occassions. Offerings on cross roads etc etc. I think post the Bali bombings this interest was heightened. Covid too might have played a role. In any case these prayers may have worked as Bali is booming again.
SidJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2023, 02:42 PM   #11
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,190
Default

Yes, T.J. Bezemer writes (1931), men visiting do place their keris in keris holders.

Another mention of use of keris holders- Court Arts of Indonesia (1990) - "Though spectacular as sculptures and used to flank the seat of honor of the ruler in Bali and Lombok, kris-holders were not designed to hold the most sacred krises, which would be kept in pusaka boxes and brought out only on ceremonial occasions."

This is a picture of offerings to enshrined founders of a Puri. On this ocassion Keris associated with them are placed in holders, flanking their "seat".
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Gustav; 9th December 2023 at 08:05 PM.
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2023, 08:38 PM   #12
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,649
Default

Puri or Pura Gustav?

That pic is a good find.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2023, 08:43 PM   #13
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,190
Default

Alan, Puri (palace) indeed.
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2023, 09:37 PM   #14
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,649
Default

Thanks Gustav, I asked the question because I heard of a pura in Tabanan that has something similar to this staged regularly.

Yes, we normally refer to a Balinese ruler's abode (hardly a palace) as a puri, but in fact it can be applied to the abode of any nobleman.

Ordinary people sometimes use the word jokingly to apply to their own house.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2023, 10:25 PM   #15
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,190
Default

Alan, I wonder if that is not Puri Anyar Kerambitan.

https://www.nowbali.co.id/puri-anyar...alace-history/
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th December 2023, 10:53 PM   #16
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,649
Default

No Gustav, it was a pura, supposedly there was a cave under this pura that held a hoard of sacred keris, tombak & other paraphernalia.

I got this story second hand, cannot vouch for any of it, but it was a good story, the teller was a longtime European ex-pat who lives near Ubud.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2023, 01:01 AM   #17
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,190
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey View Post

Ordinary people sometimes use the word jokingly to apply to their own house.
My home is my Puri!
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2023, 01:28 AM   #18
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,649
Default

Absolutely!
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.