Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 8th July 2021, 03:35 PM   #1
Indio_Ira
Member
 
Indio_Ira's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 24
Default Pattern Welding Kampilan and Kris

Hello all,

Sharing with you my straight kris and kampilan.

Kris pattern welding
Hilt = 4 7/8in
Blade = 20 in

Kampilan with pattern welding as well
Entire length - 37 in
Hilt - 9in
Guard - 6in
Blade - 27 1/2in
Thickness 1/4

I'd like to know their provenance, I was told the Kampilan is from Maguindanao.

Thanks!
Attached Images
           
Indio_Ira is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2021, 11:25 PM   #2
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 6,353
Default

Nice blades. But my question would be is this "pattern welding" or are these "laminated" blades? I realize the techniques are related, but my understanding is that pattern welding is a technique which grew out of the process of "laminated" or "piled steel" forging. This aspect of blade collection is not my expertise, so please feel free to correct me if i have this wrong. It could be just me falling for the naming of the things and expecting to see a more defined pattern in pattern welding.
This is what i would more expect to see in a pattern welded Moro blade as seen in this barung.
Attached Images
 
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2021, 12:56 AM   #3
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,792
Default

The kris is Maguindanao in origin and is missing the top silver band underneath the pommel.

I also think the kampilan could also be Maguindanao based on the okir oon topn the pommel. It is obviously missing the hair on top and this indicates a possible ceremonial piece. Also the holes at the end of the kampilan blade may have been filled with brass or even silver, being talismanic.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2021, 09:23 AM   #4
Indio_Ira
Member
 
Indio_Ira's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 24
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
Nice blades. But my question would be is this "pattern welding" or are these "laminated" blades? I realize the techniques are related, but my understanding is that pattern welding is a technique which grew out of the process of "laminated" or "piled steel" forging. This aspect of blade collection is not my expertise, so please feel free to correct me if i have this wrong. It could be just me falling for the naming of the things and expecting to see a more defined pattern in pattern welding.
This is what i would more expect to see in a pattern welded Moro blade as seen in this barung.
It could be that you are right? I wasn't aware that there's a difference...I'm pretty new in collecting Moro blades so my knowledge is very novice.
Indio_Ira is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2021, 09:26 AM   #5
Indio_Ira
Member
 
Indio_Ira's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 24
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara View Post
The kris is Maguindanao in origin and is missing the top silver band underneath the pommel.

I also think the kampilan could also be Maguindanao based on the okir oon topn the pommel. It is obviously missing the hair on top and this indicates a possible ceremonial piece. Also the holes at the end of the kampilan blade may have been filled with brass or even silver, being talismanic.
Thank you for your insight on my blades.

Is it always the case when the hair is missing that it is a ceremonial piece?
Indio_Ira is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2021, 02:53 PM   #6
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 6,353
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indio_Ira View Post
It could be that you are right? I wasn't aware that there's a difference...I'm pretty new in collecting Moro blades so my knowledge is very novice.
Well, i'm not sure i am correct either. LOL!
But i think it might be a case where all pattern welded blades are laminated blades, but not all laminated blades are pattern welded.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2021, 09:36 PM   #7
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,133
Default

Just a query: would it be correct to assume that the kris blade is laminated thru and thru and the dark edges are the result of differential tempering?
ariel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2021, 12:25 AM   #8
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,711
Cool

Quote:
all pattern welded blades are laminated blades, but not all laminated blades are pattern welded.
Well, there are also pattern welded wootz blades (which are technically not laminated...) - however, more often than not, the terminology often gets pretty loosely applied, anyway.

In Indonesia, there also is the concept of planned and unplanned pamor: Complex, controlled pattern welding would usually be referred to as planned while more basic, "random" laminations are usually considered as unplanned. IMHO this is also somewhat off since for tight "unplanned" laminations you also need to have a clear intention, know how to achieve that and what you're doing, as well as having extensive control during your working processes. Moreover, there also seems to be a tendency to refer to some pamor motifs as unplanned since their "spontaneous" appearance is believed to enhance their mystic power. In many cases, I'm more inclined to believe that the blade smith did lend more than a mere helping hand...

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2021, 12:29 AM   #9
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,711
Post

Hello Ariel,

Quote:
Just a query: would it be correct to assume that the kris blade is laminated thru and thru and the dark edges are the result of differential tempering?
No, most kris blades are of sandwich construction with a central layer of hardened steel (dark after staining) and laminated mild steel as outer layers (lighter areas).

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2021, 12:17 PM   #10
JBG163
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: France
Posts: 86
Default

Pattern welded : use of two different steel with different characteristics to produce a contrast (like keris)

Laminated/forge folded : use of bloomed steel, forge folded several times to purify it. The position of the bloom, in the furnace, will not be homogeneous in terms of carbon content. Which will produce different coloration during etching. Also, several layer can be seen (like Japanese sword). Not that if you use two different forge folded steel ingot with different amount of carbon and different composition, you can make a pattern welded blade.

Wootz steel : crucible steel, made in a graphite crucible. Itís the composition + heating/cooling process which will give it the characteristics.
JBG163 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2021, 10:22 PM   #11
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,792
Default

Ariel - usually the edges that are dark are due to tempering.

Indio_Ira - It seems so far that kampilans with hair are ceremonial.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2021, 10:30 PM   #12
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,133
Default

Kai and Battara,
Guys, thatís exactly what I had in mind and was saying about the kris presented here: dark edges due to tempering.
ariel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2021, 12:44 PM   #13
JBG163
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: France
Posts: 86
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel View Post
Kai and Battara,
Guys, thatís exactly what I had in mind and was saying about the kris presented here: dark edges due to tempering.
Seems the two responses are good. The kris shows a harder steel use for the edge (darker because of the better carbon content than the rest) plus the quench line. You can see that variation of the quench line go above the harder edge, especially on the tip
JBG163 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2021, 01:35 PM   #14
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,711
Default

Hello Ariel,

Quote:
thatís exactly what I had in mind and was saying about the kris presented here: dark edges due to tempering.
Well, these blades are most certainly not tempered. The central steel layer is certainly higher carbon steel with at least the edges hardened; it's tough to establish whether these got differentially hardened/quenched though. Indonesian/Malay Keris are usually water quenched by dipping the distal third to 2 thirds into water - I have yet to see a Moro kris with the same tell-tale v-shape discolouration. However, this is also not commonly seen on keris and the larger size of the Moro kris may dissipate heat resulting in more gradual transition between hardened and non-hardened areas.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2021, 01:37 PM   #15
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,711
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBG163 View Post
Seems the two responses are good. The kris shows a harder steel use for the edge (darker because of the better carbon content than the rest) plus the quench line. You can see that variation of the quench line go above the harder edge, especially on the tip
Yes, Julien - the quench is quite extensive and tends to extend past the steel layer.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2021, 01:57 PM   #16
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,711
Post

Hello Julien,

Quote:
Pattern welded : use of two different steel with different characteristics to produce a contrast (like keris)
D'accord.

Pattern welding is probably more defined by the intention of the blade smith rather than actual contrast achieved though: In many cultures a more subdued contrast was appreciated compared to the bold pamor often seen with keris Jawa/Bali. Also the method to visualize the contrast varies widely (high polish in Japan vs topographic etch, warangan stain vs patina from use, etc.).


Quote:
Laminated/forge folded : use of bloomed steel, forge folded several times to purify it. The position of the bloom, in the furnace, will not be homogeneous in terms of carbon content. Which will produce different coloration during etching. Also, several layer can be seen (like Japanese sword).
Quite often the contrast is also due to phosphate, nickel, or other differences between alloys. (While bloomery steel is historically most relevant, also other sources/alloys can be welded to produce laminated steel.)

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2021, 02:11 PM   #17
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,711
Wink

Hello Jose,

Quote:
It seems so far that kampilans with hair are ceremonial.
I would agree them being status pieces. Considering kampilans with hair being the overwhelming majority among antique examples, they very likely were put to other uses, too (i.e. well beyond purely ceremonial function).

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2021, 02:22 PM   #18
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,711
Thumbs up back to the pieces

Hello Ira,

That's a really nice 19th century kampilan! (Let me know whenever you decide to part with it, please. )

Are you sure the blade is "only" 1/4 inch thick? (Looks like it might be thicker...)

The blade most likely would benefit from a gentle polish and etch. Certainly laminated with hardened edge; many exhibit nice laminations/patterns, too.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2021, 02:31 PM   #19
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,711
Post

Hello Ira,

IMHO, this Moro kris (blade and hilt) originates from the early 20th century.

While 20" is really short, the blade sure looks Maguindanao (as does the scabbard). The pommel (it certainly deserves the missing silver band to be replaced) might be pointing to the upper Cota Bato area.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2021, 01:15 AM   #20
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,792
Default

Kai one correction - I have seen many that do not have hair holes, in fact, I would say there are more without hair holes than with.

You do make a good point though that those ceremonial/status kampilans are still usable in practical use (and some have been).
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2021, 05:14 AM   #21
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 3,273
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara View Post
Kai one correction - I have seen many that do not have hair holes, in fact, I would say there are more without hair holes than with.

You do make a good point though that those ceremonial/status kampilans are still usable in practical use (and some have been).
Agree with battara. Most kampilan did not have holes for (horse) hair plugs. Perhaps some of the more ceremonial/decorative variety with plugs (+/- hair) have survived the test of time better and found their way into current collections. Looking at pictures of caches of weapons seized by U.S. forces after battles or confiscated by proclamation show most kampilan lacked hair plugs.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2021, 04:38 PM   #22
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 6,353
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai View Post
Hello Ira,

IMHO, this Moro kris (blade and hilt) originates from the early 20th century.

While 20" is really short, the blade sure looks Maguindanao (as does the scabbard).
I'm not sure that 20" is really short for this era. I don't own this one anymore, but the blade here was only 18". I have seen a fair number of keris from around the turn to the 20th century that also have blades in the range of 20".

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...highlight=Kris
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.