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Old 17th February 2007, 03:52 PM   #1
carlos
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Default KERIS WITH IVORY HILT

HELLO!!
THIS IS MY LAST ADQUISITION, A BEAUTIFUL KERIS WITH IVORY HILT. THE SHETH IS INCOMPLETED BUT THE KERIS IS GOOD. I BOUGHT IT TO A SELLER TOLD ME IT WAS A AFRICAN KNIFE !! AND I PAID 90 DOLLARS !!
I HOPE YOU ENJOY WITH THE KERIS!!
THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION
CARLOS
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Old 17th February 2007, 06:38 PM   #2
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Thumbs up

Nice catch Carlos. The blade isn't extraordinary, but it is a good solid example of a gonjo iras blade with what is to my eye a rather attractive profile. Shame about the sheath, though it does look like those might actually be silver fittings. It would be impossible to have a top sheath carved for this, though matching and fitting everything might be difficult. But the hilt alone is worth way more than you paid for the whole thing so i would say you did well. Looks Sumatran to me, maybe Minang Kabau based on the hilt form. How long is the blade?

Last edited by David; 17th February 2007 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 17th February 2007, 08:06 PM   #3
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THANKS FOR THE INFORMATION, I LOVE THE IVORY HILTS, THIS IS THE REASON IM VERY HAPPY WITH THIS KERIS.
THE BLADE HAS 11.5 INCH.
REGARDS
CARLOS
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Old 18th February 2007, 01:27 AM   #4
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Hi,

Judging from the blade form and hilt, I would associate it with Lampung, South Sumatra. As I hear from more senior collectors here in Singapore, the hilt has "Mickey Mouse ears"; It is quite a distinctive form. Most Minang Kabau kerises, which I would consider more Central Sumatra, are of the bahari form and seldom ganja iras. Non-bahari Minang kerises tend to look more Bugis than Javanese. South Sumatra kerises tend to have a more Javanese look to it. Like any generalisations, there would be exceptions to these assertions.
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Old 18th February 2007, 02:49 AM   #5
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Yeah, I thought it looked a bit South Sumateraish too.

That type of blade seems to be associated with that part of the world more so than with other places.
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Old 18th February 2007, 01:43 PM   #6
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Yep, i am sure you guys are probably right on this one. At least i was on the right island.
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Old 22nd February 2007, 02:50 PM   #7
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The 'mickey mouse' hilt form, spans quite a large geographical region in Sumatra. There are examples on Palembang, Minang and many other pieces.

Adni's classification of hilt forms had identified the hilt as Minangkbau, (based on Malay Art Gallery archives.)

Michael (VVV) have examples of this hilt form on various types of Sumatran keris.
On a Minangkabau's keris:
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

On a Palembang keris:
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

In Van Duuren's, The Kris, Page 54, there is a similar form which mentioned it as from South Sumatra.

In Kerner's, Keris-Griffe - Aus Dem Malayischen Archipel, Page 52, Fig: 40, another 'mickey mouse' but only indicated as from Sumatra.

As for whatever left of the sheath, and the blade, it seems Central Sumatra to me.

"Ganja Iras" is a purpose-built piece. Where it was believed, with proper ritual, could be used to penetrate an 'invincible' warrior, (those that practices a kind of mystical 'warrior-magic').

Others have stated before that it is a short-cut, cost saving means... etc. However, in the Malay mystic world, it hold certain values.
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Old 22nd February 2007, 07:58 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alam Shah
Adni's classification of hilt forms had identified the hilt as Minangkbau, (based on Malay Art Gallery archives.)

"Ganja Iras" is a purpose-built piece. Where it was believed, with proper ritual, could be used to penetrate an 'invincible' warrior, (those that practices a kind of mystical 'warrior-magic').

Others have stated before that it is a short-cut, cost saving means... etc. However, in the Malay mystic world, it hold certain values.
Thanks Shahrial. Adni's assessment is what i based my first guess on.

This info on gonjo iras is very interesting to me. As you state, we have had this discussion before and i have never been quite satisfied with the answers. If you have more information on the Malay mystical world view of these type of keris i would love to hear it.
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Old 23rd February 2007, 01:40 AM   #9
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Default More research...

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
This info on gonjo iras is very interesting to me. As you state, we have had this discussion before and i have never been quite satisfied with the answers. If you have more information on the Malay mystical world view of these type of keris i would love to hear it.
Well, I'll let it rest. I'll suggest that more research be done to satisfy your interest in the topic of the Malay mystical world view.

Last edited by Alam Shah; 23rd February 2007 at 02:57 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 23rd February 2007, 02:49 AM   #10
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By the length of the blae and its form, it's a Bahari. It's quite rare for Bahari blades to come in ganja iras form, methinks.
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Old 23rd February 2007, 03:02 AM   #11
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Rahman, could you please explain why you would classify this blade form as bahari?
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Old 23rd February 2007, 03:28 AM   #12
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Here is a link to a thread that displays a rather extraordinary keris bahari:
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001237.html
And i have attached another more standard example fro, Dominique's site. I don't see a similarity in form to the keris that started this thread. Am i missing something?
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Old 23rd February 2007, 03:33 AM   #13
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Thumbs up Sheath's crosspiece model...

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
... It would be impossible to have a top sheath carved for this, though matching and fitting everything might be difficult. ... Looks Sumatran to me, maybe Minang Kabau based on the hilt form. How long is the blade?
For the missing crosspiece, it could be re-made. The shaft joint to the crosspiece portion is intact. (PM me if you couldn't get anyone to do it.)

It should look something like this.
(Picture courtesy of VVV).
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Old 23rd February 2007, 03:55 AM   #14
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Oops! That was a typo on my part. I had meant to write that it would be possible which is why i followed it up with "though matching and fitting everything might be difficult". Though come to think of it, it really wouldn't be anymore difficult than making a sheath from scratch. Not that it is ever an easy job.
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Old 26th February 2007, 04:10 AM   #15
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Sorry David for not replying earlier.

The sorsoran does have some similarity. Although most baharis tend to be thein and slender, this one has a nice waist (pinggang) that you do find among some baharis.

It was my immediate reaction. I could be wrong, though.

Carlos -- how long is the blade, anyway?
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Old 26th February 2007, 03:37 PM   #16
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Default blade

Quote:
Originally Posted by rahman
Sorry David for not replying earlier.

The sorsoran does have some similarity. Although most baharis tend to be thein and slender, this one has a nice waist (pinggang) that you do find among some baharis.

It was my immediate reaction. I could be wrong, though.

Carlos -- how long is the blade, anyway?
Hello rahma!!
Is 11.5 inch., if you need more pictures i can make more.
Thanks
Carlos
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Old 2nd March 2007, 03:38 AM   #17
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No, I stand corrected. It's would be much too long to be a bahari.

Sorry!
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Old 2nd March 2007, 01:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahman
No, I stand corrected. It's would be much too long to be a bahari.
Sorry!
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but i guess this is as good a place as any for these questions. Obviously i don't think this is a bahari either, but more for matters of form rather than length. But is 11.5" really much too long for a bahari? The one i linked to earlier in this thread is about 11" long. Adni has at least two on his site in the sold section that are 12" long. Here is a link to one: http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/ker...ory_2warna.htm
I have a anak alang that is just under 16", but i have also seen keris listed as anak alang as short as 12" or 13". Most of the full length panjangs i have seen are over 20".
So there appears to be a little bit of cross-over. Are some of these blades being mis-catagorized? How specific are these length limits? Could they be a bit different depending upon origin of the blade? Are there any other attribute other than length that distinguish a bahari from a anak alang from a full length panjang?
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Old 2nd March 2007, 02:39 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
... I have an anak alang that is just under 16", but i have also seen keris listed as anak alang as short as 12" or 13". Most of the full length panjangs i have seen are over 20".
So there appears to be a little bit of cross-over. Are some of these blades being mis-catagorized? How specific are these length limits? Could they be a bit different depending upon origin of the blade? Are there any other attribute other than length that distinguish a bahari from a anak alang from a full length panjang?
Basically the bahari, anak alang, alang, panjang are blade form of a similar class. The main difference is the length. A long bahari could be a short anak alang and a long anak alang could be a short panjang.

As far as classifications are concerned, there is no fixed length (contrary to my previous post of long ago). The thing about blades from these regions are, the moment you try to classify them, one suddenly pops up to 'defy' classification. The main reason I believe, may be due to te absence of standards to conform to, like the pakem of javanese kerises.

This blade form is not bahari class, imho.

Last edited by Alam Shah; 2nd March 2007 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 2nd March 2007, 02:55 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alam Shah
This blade form is not bahari class, imho.
I don't image it is an anak alang either.

As far as you know Shahrial (or anyone else ) is there any specifically different cultural importance to the three different blades in this class? Why would someone commission a bahari as opposed to an anak alang for instance. The full length panjang are know as "executioner" keris, but this certainly wasn't their main purpose for being.
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Old 2nd March 2007, 04:27 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I don't image it is an anak alang either. .
Nope it's not an anak alang either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
... Why would someone commission a bahari as opposed to an anak alang for instance. The full length panjang are know as "executioner" keris, but this certainly wasn't their main purpose for being.
The anak alang term is commonly used in Peninsular Malaysia, lesser in Sumatra.
The bahari common in Sumatra than in Peninsular Malaysia.

There are slight differences in material and other details from these two regions. Just compare a typical minangkabau bahari with a peninsular anak alang... (of course there are countless variation in between), what can you tell?

Above: A Peninsular Malay anak alang (courtesy of MAG).
Below: A Minangkabau bahari (courtesy of VVV).

As you can see, it's quite similar, with slight differences .
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Last edited by Alam Shah; 2nd March 2007 at 11:17 PM. Reason: grammar and clarity...
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Old 2nd March 2007, 05:55 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alam Shah
The anak alang form is commonly found in Peninsular Malaysia, lesser in Sumatra.
Interestingly my anak alang is believed to be from Sumatra.
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Old 2nd March 2007, 11:26 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Interestingly my anak alang is believed to be from Sumatra.
Good for you ... If you don't mind, can we see some pictures.
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Old 2nd March 2007, 11:29 PM   #24
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Default Keris panjang, "executioner" keris purpose

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
The full length panjang are know as "executioner" keris, but this certainly wasn't their main purpose for being.
David, what do you think is their main purpose?
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Old 3rd March 2007, 01:24 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alam Shah
David, what do you think is their main purpose?
Good question. I have seen very little other than vague passing remarks about the panjang, mostly alluding to it's use as an execitioners keris. I am certain that indeed it has served this purpose, but i also wonder if that isn't just an incidental purpose of status level, if indeed these blades are held by those with the authority and "right" to execute. I would guess that signal to the societal "rank" of the keris holder might be its truer purpose. I am sure that there are many of these blades around that never took a life. Does anyone have any information on just what part of the populous owned this type of keris?
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Old 4th March 2007, 09:43 AM   #26
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Sorry, gang, let me just try to reframe this discussion so poor Carlos can have his answers

My first impression looking at the full profile and a bit of the fittings in the photos made me feel it is a bahari. By saying it's too long to be a bahari does not mean that I think Carlos' blade is an anak alang either.

Many Sumatran baharis display a 'tapering waist'. This is quite rare among anak alangs, on either side of the Malacca Straits.

Another thing that I missed is the fairly deep picitan on Carlos' blade.

So, please, I withdraw all remarks about baharis and anak alangs in this thread.

thanks.
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Old 4th March 2007, 01:53 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alam Shah
The 'mickey mouse' hilt form, spans quite a large geographical region in Sumatra. There are examples on Palembang, Minang and many other pieces.

Adni's classification of hilt forms had identified the hilt as Minangkbau, (based on Malay Art Gallery archives.)

Michael (VVV) have examples of this hilt form on various types of Sumatran keris.
On a Minangkabau's keris:
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

On a Palembang keris:
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

In Van Duuren's, The Kris, Page 54, there is a similar form which mentioned it as from South Sumatra.

In Kerner's, Keris-Griffe - Aus Dem Malayischen Archipel, Page 52, Fig: 40, another 'mickey mouse' but only indicated as from Sumatra.

As for whatever left of the sheath, and the blade, it seems Central Sumatra to me.

"Ganja Iras" is a purpose-built piece. Where it was believed, with proper ritual, could be used to penetrate an 'invincible' warrior, (those that practices a kind of mystical 'warrior-magic').

Others have stated before that it is a short-cut, cost saving means... etc. However, in the Malay mystic world, it hold certain values.
Hi Shahrial,

If you look carefully, you are seeing 2 stylistically similar but different hilt forms. The examples you have placed there have ears which don't flare out, but goes straight up the head. A "U" shape.

Carlos' keris hilt has ears that flare out. A "V" shape. Here's another example, though I apologize I only have the side view of it. This hilt is in Paul De Souza's collection. It is a wide "V" shape.

Another thing we can take note - the eyes are different. The minang hilts have more bulging eyes while the "lampung-style" hilts are more "se-daging" (flush with the form) defined by shallow lines.

The blade is not a bahari or an anak alang in my opinion. The greneng doesn't look appropriate. The gandik is too broad and high. The blade is too broad and flat.
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Old 4th March 2007, 03:21 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahman
Sorry, gang, let me just try to reframe this discussion so poor Carlos can have his answers

Many Sumatran baharis display a 'tapering waist'. This is quite rare among anak alangs, on either side of the Malacca Straits.
Rahman, i think Carlos is getting plenty of answer inspite of our little side track into the world of bahari and anak alang.
There may be minor disagreements which might never resolve themselves completely, but i have found that to be the nature of most keris discussions. At least now we can all agree that his keris is not a bahari or anak alang.
Interestingly, my anak alang does display a somewhat "tapering waist".
Kai Wee, thanks for getting more specific about the diferences between Lumpung and Minang hilts in this form. I think these subtle differences are sometimes difficult to discern and i have a feeling that many of these hilts get misrepresented in books, auctions and websites. I am sure i have seen the ones with the more bulging eyes described as Lumpung and vice versa. Great research.
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Old 4th March 2007, 03:36 PM   #29
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Kai Wee,

Good keen observation... . After a long hard look, I do agree.
Thanks for pointing it out. Lampung it is then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluErf
...The blade is not a bahari or an anak alang in my opinion...
Agreed it is not. I find that the tikel alis is also different, a deep groove type.
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Old 4th March 2007, 03:57 PM   #30
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Default Tapering waist...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rahman
...Many Sumatran baharis display a 'tapering waist'. This is quite rare among anak alangs, on either side of the Malacca Straits..
Not necessarily so. The 'tapering waist' is a feature of bahari class (which includes anak alang and panjang). However there are exceptions. See the examples.
(courtesy of VVV)
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/...mp_j.sized.jpg
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/...bahl.sized.jpg
(courtesy of BluErf)
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/albums/...lade_whole.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by rahman
This is quite rare among anak alangs, on either side of the Malacca Straits.
Imho, not necessarily so. Although based on your specimens on "The Bangkinang Brothers", yours seems so.
An example of a Riau Anak Alang, (with the 'tapering waist').
(courtesy of Malay Art Gallery).
http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/ker...riau_perak.htm

Last edited by Alam Shah; 4th March 2007 at 04:10 PM.
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