Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 23rd January 2022, 04:59 PM   #1
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 663
Default Ottoman ? Kindjal/qama with unusual scabbard

Hello dear members,

I wanted to show you this kindjal/qama dagger,

the dagger must be 19th century with nice horn hilt and some gold koftgari remains

but the scabbard is strange:

Not related at all ( I find) with the dagger but it suits perfectly with the dagger.

really nice made, wood with brass wires and silver nails
and on the other side add of corals and mother of pearls.
make me think of 19th century harem shoes or decorated chests

-Maybe later made ??

- Was the scabbard made in Turkey or north Africa ( Algeria ?)
( mother of pearl and the shape of the striped corals reminds me ottoman empire...)

- Can both dagger and scabbard come from Turkey ??

It can't be a ''usable'' scabbard for the real use:
no clip for a belt on it and it will be brittle with his wooden structure and mother of pearl/ coral set...

maybe the ''home''/parade fancy scabbard ?...

I'll post pictures of the blade,
interesting too, maybe a pattern or etched fullers...

Please tell me what do you think of it .


Kind regards
Attached Images
     
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2022, 04:56 PM   #2
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 663
Default

hello again

I found this one on internet,
exactly the same work but for a smaller blade , and just no mother of pearl...
sold as an ottoman dagger and said to be 19th century...

With ''my'' qama/kindjal , the dagger and hilt can/will be persian more than turkish
Attached Images
  
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th January 2022, 05:49 PM   #3
Interested Party
Member
 
Interested Party's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 179
Default

I would love to see some better pictures of the OP blade.

francatolin do you think that these are the original handle slabs? I have always wondered with kindjals what the original tolerances were for "working/daily driver" blades and how much horn changes its shape over time.
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th January 2022, 08:49 AM   #4
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 663
Default

Yes for the genuine old slab- horn grips I guess,

here a picture of the side
sure I cleaned it + sand 000 grain then oiled it with amand oil
( like a pedicure
Attached Images
 
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th January 2022, 08:54 AM   #5
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 663
Default

some pictures of the blade,

fullers were etched I think ,
( but the rusty side of the blade can look like a pattern too and all can be folded steel ??)

we can see remains of old damascening on the blade ( persian work ??)
Attached Images
   
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th January 2022, 12:39 PM   #6
Gonzoadler
Member
 
Gonzoadler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Germany
Posts: 213
Default

Hello,

I think your Kindjal is a mixture of parts which are made in different regions.
The blade is a type which is typical for Dagestan. Characteristical is the fuller which is not in the blade's center. Most of these blades were made in Dagestan, but of course they were also copied in other regions like Georgia. Without a makers mark it is difficult to state that the blade was definitely made in Dagestan. Many of them were exported from Dagestan and mounted in other regions in the local taste.
The handle doesn't look homogeneous to me. The rivets are far too big for the horn grips. You can often find similar rivets on steel mounted, Koftgari decorated Kindjals, many were made for example in Georgia. The grips itself have the right size for the blade, but they are of a bit crude qualitity. So, the grips and the rivets could be a later replacement, because both does not really look like belonging to the blade.
The scabbard is simply a later addition, you can see that because the transition between scabbard and handle is not very proper. It could been made in Syria, because we know many iron mounted daggers with silver work from there. Of course silver inlay is much more rare than Koftgari and the use of corals is also not so common there, but the general style matches. Also we know similar inlaid nacre from some originally Syrian regions like the Golan Heights. The handle nacre inlays of Druze daggers are nearly identical. Some pictures of Syrian daggers are added.

So I think your Kindjal was originally made in the Caucasus and over the time handle and/or rivets were replaced there and the scabbard was lost. In that condition the dagger went to Syria or an adjacent region and got it's scabbard. The scabbard is not very functional but very decorative, so I would say that this dagger was sold on a souk/bazar as a decorative item. That would also explain some qualitative weaknesses.
As a summary of my opinion, your dagger is an interesting mix of antique parts from different regions.

Regards
Robin
Attached Images
    
Gonzoadler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th January 2022, 05:05 PM   #7
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 663
Default

Yes, a curious mixture of influences in any case!

The blade also reminds me of Dagestan daggers,
unfortunately there is no inscription or stamp on the blade.

For the rivets on the handle,
I found an old post with a Persian qama, validated by the community ,

same kind of blade, identical shape and decorations, the rivets also protrude widely from the handle...

I don't think ''mine'' have been modified as well as the horn hilt which fits exactly with the blade, they just must be really really old or bad preserved
like the decorations that have disappeared on the blade ( and we see on this model).

( Sure,Bizarre on the other hand that the fullers are impeccable, done later?? )


I agree, with you, as I already mentioned ,
the sheath has no attachment to be fixed and seems more to be done for decoration,

this structure without fixings made me think of a potential Ottoman origin,
in addition to shaped corals, yatagans and long daggers were often worn in a belt-pouch and there is not always a clip for fix it...

the scabbard, maybe/certainly later made , is still old work,
the traces of old black lateral rust at the beginning of the blade correspond to a lateral break at the entrance to the scabbard favoring oxidation.
So they are travelling together since a long time...


Has anyone any idea of ​​the origin of the similar small dagger of which I posted the photos before ?,

It will fix the origin of the scabbard ...
In any case, I don't think these were low-end souk pieces. I have rarely seen shaped coral pieces of this size with this arrangement of silver and brass wires and so many silver studs , if it was common work,
one would find many nowadays.
Attached Images
  
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.