Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 16th May 2023, 03:35 PM   #1
Forja Fontenla
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 13
Default Could you help me with this blucher style saber?

Hello people!
I need your wisdom to solve something about the origin of this blucher-type saber. It only has this mark that looks like a ship
The scabbard has two rings and the ferrules that assemble them to the scabbard are made of bronze.
Thank you!!
Best regards!









Last edited by Forja Fontenla; 16th May 2023 at 08:34 PM. Reason: The images were not visible
Forja Fontenla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th May 2023, 10:55 PM   #2
toaster5sqn
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 66
Default

While I can't help with the ship mark I can say it's likely your sword is one of the later derivative models rather than an M1811 Blutcher. Most telling is the narrow point such as is seen on the M1848 Mounted Artillery Sabre. Also the lack of langets could be significant or they could have been removed in service.

Robert
toaster5sqn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2023, 12:45 AM   #3
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,697
Default

I am so glad to see this example, which has a distinct mark that has remained unidentified, and this is after thorough checks with every resource known concerning markings. It was first shown by BBJW in 2008, with I think 3 responses no info forthcoming.

In that thread it appears on a 'cutlass' with markings W I D C No.38
which is to the West India Docks in London. Here vessels embarking for West Indies and returning had goods being guarded by security personnel, the force was typically 100 men. The number clearly a rack number.

For those interested use West India Docks on the search bar and the three unsuccessful threads will appear.

As far as I could find, the F H initials on either side of the apparent mast on the 'vessel' ? are most likely to Friedrich Horster of Solingen (1825-1875).
What is odd is that he only used initials F H on his blades.

The cutlass in question seems to be c.1820s and likely later, which would coincide with the M1811 Blucher type saber here.
As noted, the Blucher pattern was used perpetually into the WWI period, however examples after mid 19th c. had notably lighter blades.

It is unclear why Horster would use this 'maritime' theme added to his initials and interesting that the device or mark might signify him catering to naval maritime clientele.

With that perhaps this might be a saber for such naval connection? an officers saber, or again similar naval security forces?
Apparently Horster had agency offices in England.

My next stop would be the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich.
Attached Images
   
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2023, 02:38 AM   #4
Forja Fontenla
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 13
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
I am so glad to see this example, which has a distinct mark that has remained unidentified, and this is after thorough checks with every resource known concerning markings. It was first shown by BBJW in 2008, with I think 3 responses no info forthcoming.

In that thread it appears on a 'cutlass' with markings W I D C No.38
which is to the West India Docks in London. Here vessels embarking for West Indies and returning had goods being guarded by security personnel, the force was typically 100 men. The number clearly a rack number.

For those interested use West India Docks on the search bar and the three unsuccessful threads will appear.

As far as I could find, the F H initials on either side of the apparent mast on the 'vessel' ? are most likely to Friedrich Horster of Solingen (1825-1875).
What is odd is that he only used initials F H on his blades.

The cutlass in question seems to be c.1820s and likely later, which would coincide with the M1811 Blucher type saber here.
As noted, the Blucher pattern was used perpetually into the WWI period, however examples after mid 19th c. had notably lighter blades.

It is unclear why Horster would use this 'maritime' theme added to his initials and interesting that the device or mark might signify him catering to naval maritime clientele.

With that perhaps this might be a saber for such naval connection? an officers saber, or again similar naval security forces?
Apparently Horster had agency offices in England.

My next stop would be the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich.
Thanks Jim!
But how interesting!
Thank you very much for the info
Could this saber have belonged to the West India Dock Police?
https://british-police-history.uk/f/west-india-dock
Forja Fontenla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2023, 02:40 AM   #5
Forja Fontenla
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 13
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by toaster5sqn View Post
While I can't help with the ship mark I can say it's likely your sword is one of the later derivative models rather than an M1811 Blutcher. Most telling is the narrow point such as is seen on the M1848 Mounted Artillery Sabre. Also the lack of langets could be significant or they could have been removed in service.

Robert
Thanks Robert!!
Was removal of langets frequent?
Or did they come like that from the factory?
Eduardo
Forja Fontenla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2023, 04:18 AM   #6
BBJW
Member
 
BBJW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Idaho, USA
Posts: 225
Default

My WIDC cutlass has the same maker's mark- F H and the boat. Yours with the same mark is the only other one I've seen.-- bbjw
BBJW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2023, 03:36 PM   #7
Forja Fontenla
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 13
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBJW View Post
My WIDC cutlass has the same maker's mark- F H and the boat. Yours with the same mark is the only other one I've seen.-- bbjw
BBJW
Where did you find it?
I live in Argentina. My country, during the wars of independence (1810-1825) and later during the civil wars (Unitarios Vs Federales) it was customary to acquire surplus weapons until they began to regulate weapons around 1870.
It is possible that this saber reached these lands in those times...
Eduardo
Forja Fontenla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2023, 10:51 PM   #8
toaster5sqn
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 66
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forja Fontenla View Post
BBJW
Where did you find it?
I live in Argentina. My country, during the wars of independence (1810-1825) and later during the civil wars (Unitarios Vs Federales) it was customary to acquire surplus weapons until they began to regulate weapons around 1870.
It is possible that this saber reached these lands in those times...
Eduardo
I did find some hints when trying to identify what turned out to be a Prussian M1848 at the local museum that swords of that type may have been supplied to South America so that is very likely the source.

The langets were often removed in the field but it is entirely possible that a batch could have been ordered without them.

Robert
toaster5sqn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th May 2023, 11:49 PM   #9
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,697
Default

Eduardo, thank you for that most informative link! That was exactly what I was suggesting and seeing that there were apparently mounted patrols as well, perhaps these sabers were provided.

As Horster seems to have used only initials FH on his blades, it is tempting to think possible the stylized vessel device was used either in a brief period of his manufacture, or aligned with contract for naval oriented swords.

With the merger in 1818 it would seem the cutlasses marked WIDC (West India Docks Constabulary?) would be the terminus post quem for that acronym?

All speculations, and the South American circumstances are intriguing! Thank you for sharing these.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2023, 07:57 AM   #10
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,724
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
Eduardo, thank you for that most informative link! That was exactly what I was suggesting and seeing that there were apparently mounted patrols as well, perhaps these sabers were provided.

As Horster seems to have used only initials FH on his blades, it is tempting to think possible the stylized vessel device was used either in a brief period of his manufacture, or aligned with contract for naval oriented swords.

With the merger in 1818 it would seem the cutlasses marked WIDC (West India Docks Constabulary?) would be the terminus post quem for that acronym?

All speculations, and the South American circumstances are intriguing! Thank you for sharing these.
Hi Jim,
Check out this link which I hope is of interest.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/su...43-4/pp248-268
I think that WIDC stands for West India Docks Company rather than "Constabulary"
Regards Stu
kahnjar1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18th May 2023, 07:47 PM   #11
BBJW
Member
 
BBJW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Idaho, USA
Posts: 225
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1 View Post
Hi Jim,
Check out this link which I hope is of interest.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/su...43-4/pp248-268
I think that WIDC stands for West India Docks Company rather than "Constabulary"
Regards Stu
It stands for company. My WIDC cutlass came from Eastern Europe and how it got there is a mystery. Also the WIDC museum dated it circa 1812-1820 and asked if I cared to donate it. Cheers- bbjw
BBJW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th May 2023, 12:34 AM   #12
awdaniec666
Member
 
awdaniec666's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: Northern Germany
Posts: 115
Default

To round it up, here is a Blücher (M1811/ Säbel a/M) for comparison from my collection.
Attached Images
 
awdaniec666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2023, 03:25 PM   #13
Forja Fontenla
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 13
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by awdaniec666 View Post
To round it up, here is a Blücher (M1811/ Säbel a/M) for comparison from my collection.
Beautiful!!!
Forja Fontenla is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.