Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Question about a motif. (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26676)

Kurt 1st February 2021 09:29 AM

Question about a motif.
 
3 Attachment(s)
Can someone explain the motif on the back of the handle to me?
Kurt

Gonzoadler 1st February 2021 09:32 PM

Maybe it has something to do with the angel Peri?
Regards

mariusgmioc 1st February 2021 10:07 PM

Absolutely stunning khanjar. One of the most beautiful I have ever seen.

It seems to have a date and an inscription. Clearer photos of the writings may help.

Will send the photos to a friend of mine who may know more.

shayde78 1st February 2021 10:28 PM

Could it be Krishna suckling at Putana' s breast? It is a Hindu tradition, and im not sure if that fits this weapon. However, the motif seems to fit.

Gonzoadler 1st February 2021 10:45 PM

Possible, too.
I have a link to a site of a german villa.
There you can find a statue of a Peri angel which also fits your motif.
http://eichinger.ch/eichifamilyhom/R...ermesVilla.htm

shayde78 1st February 2021 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzoadler
Possible, too.
I have a link to a site of a german villa.
There you can find a statue of a Peri angel which also fits your motif.
http://eichinger.ch/eichifamilyhom/R...ermesVilla.htm

Ah...yes! A peri is from Persian mythology, so that makes much more sense. A form of benevolent jinn. Also, the wings are more consistent with the carving depicting peri. Well done :)

mariusgmioc 2nd February 2021 06:42 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Indeed they appear to be Peri, but what about the two inscriptions?

It may be they shed more light on the subject.

mahratt 2nd February 2021 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Indeed they appear to be Peri, but what about the two inscriptions?

It may be they shed more light on the subject.

Unfortunately, the translation of the inscriptions will not help much:

"Oh Kind!" (usually an appeal to Allah). Year 1250 (1255?)

Kurt 2nd February 2021 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzoadler
Possible, too.
I have a link to a site of a german villa.
There you can find a statue of a Peri angel which also fits your motif.
http://eichinger.ch/eichifamilyhom/R...ermesVilla.htm

Interesting guess !
Thanks Kurt

mariusgmioc 2nd February 2021 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt
Unfortunately, the translation of the inscriptions will not help much:

"Oh Kind!" (usually an appeal to Allah). Year 1250 (1255?)

Thank you Mahratt! :)

To my eyes looks definitely like Qajar 1250/1834 (or less likely 1205/1790), but I wanted to hear first other opinions as I wasn't very confident in my Nasta'liq date reading competency. :shrug:

Also the very aesthetical style of decorations appears to be right for that period.

Let us wait to see if my friend will find a fitting explanation for the carvings.

Meanwhile, it would also be nice to see a little more detail of the wootz pattern.

PS: I don't believe it is 1255 because it is a big difference between the supposedly 5 - ٥ and the 0 - ٠ in the carving.

Kurt 2nd February 2021 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt
Unfortunately, the translation of the inscriptions will not help much:

"Oh Kind!" (usually an appeal to Allah). Year 1250 (1255?)

Thanks Mahratt
1255 that would be = 1839

Kurt 2nd February 2021 11:39 AM

wootz pattern.
 
2 Attachment(s)
[QUOTE=mariusgmioc]Thank you Mahratt! :)

To my eyes looks definitely like Qajar 1250/1834 (or less likely 1205/1790), but I wanted to hear first other opinions as I wasn't very confident in my Nasta'liq date reading competency. :shrug:

Also the very aesthetical style of decorations appears to be right for that period.

Let us wait to see if my friend will find a fitting explanation for the carvings.

Meanwhile, it would also be nice to see a little more detail of the wootz pattern.

PS: I don't believe it is 1255 because it is a big difference between the supposedly 5 - ٥ and the 0 - ٠ in the carving.
[IMwootz pattern.

mariusgmioc 2nd February 2021 02:07 PM

Yes, this is crystalline wootz pattern, rather typical for 19th century Persian blades.

So to me, everything in this dagger is consistent with the possible date of 1834. Also the scabbard appears to be the original.

Very, very nice piece! :)

Kurt 3rd February 2021 09:45 AM

Similar motif
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt
Can someone explain the motif on the back of the handle to me?
Kurt

This dagger is shown in the catalog of the Museum Stibbert.
The only difference :
There are no roses in the basket.

kwiatek 3rd February 2021 11:19 AM

I would suggest the date rather as

سنه (٠٠)١٢

"Year 12(00)”

1200=1785-6

What people have read as two zeros/fives are part of the decoration/flowers. A zero would be a small diamond-shaped dot ۰ , like the one above the letter nun here, and a five would be a heart shape ۵ . I would rather suggest that the two zeros after 12 are implied rather than written

mariusgmioc 3rd February 2021 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwiatek
I would suggest the date rather as

سنه (٠٠)١٢

"Year 12(00)”

1200=1785-6

What people have read as two zeros/fives are part of the decoration/flowers. A zero would be a small diamond-shaped dot ۰ , like the one above the letter nun here, and a five would be a heart shape ۵ . I would rather suggest that the two zeros after 12 are implied rather than written

Thank you Kwiatek for your very interesting opinion.

However, this time, I beg to differ.

It is possible that the round "flower" after the numerals "١٢" (meaning 12) is simply for decoration but I believe it represents the numeral "٥" (meaning 5), only it was made to look as a flower for aesthetical reasons.

If one examines the carved cartouche, one may notice that all the other flowers are either outside or in line with the outline of the branch, and are slightly smaller. The only "flower" that is inside is the one following the numerals "١٢" and I believe this is for a reason. The same holds for the cartouche above where all four flowers are in line with the outline of the branch and are smaller.

So I believe the carver wrote "١٢٥" (meaning 125) but but wrote it in a more decorative form.

Moreover, the elaborate style of the carving definitely belongs to the 19th century and not to the 18th.

Last but not least, the type of the wootz is not consistent with the Kara Taban or Kara Khorasan with fine watering streaks used predominantly in the 18th century. This type of "crystalline" wootz appeared approximately at the beginning of 19th century (based on my own observations).

kwiatek 3rd February 2021 02:33 PM

I think you are probably right. I agree it looks 19th-century and that 125(0) would fit better. Also, normally only one digit is normally missed out in a date.

Though Persians never wrote 5 this way, as a circle, maybe they have adjusted the shape to fit the decoration as you suggest.

mariusgmioc 3rd February 2021 02:51 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by kwiatek
I think you are probably right. I agree it looks 19th-century and that 125(0) would fit better. Also, normally only one digit is normally missed out in a date.

Though Persians never wrote 5 this way, as a circle, maybe they have adjusted the shape to fit the decoration as you suggest.

Yeah we can speculate. :)

What about this? Does it mean anything?

kwiatek 3rd February 2021 03:18 PM

سنه

sana

“Year”

I seem to remember that there are loads of these daggers in Bern in the Historisches Museum. There might be one with the same design - I would check the catalogue but the libraries are all closed for the while.

Kurt 17th February 2021 11:22 AM

Khandjar with a very similar motif.
 
5 Attachment(s)
Found photos of a Khandjar with a very similar motif.
The same craftsman?
Same workshop?
Best Kurt

Battara 17th February 2021 11:21 PM

Looks like glass gemstones, but still nice.

Kubur 18th February 2021 07:54 AM

The scabbard is Ottoman Iraqi. I wonder if the gemstones were added later, in Iraq...
:confused:

Kurt 18th February 2021 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur
The scabbard is Ottoman Iraqi. I wonder if the gemstones were added later, in Iraq...
:confused:

I suspect scabbard and gemstones were added together in Turkey.
Best Kurt

Richard G 18th February 2021 11:56 AM

Persians had their own calendar, 'Jalali'.
If this is a Jalali date; 1250 would be 1872.
Best wishes
Richard

Ian 18th February 2021 01:03 PM

In post 20 above there is an interesting figure on the reverse side of the hilt to the one with the two peri. Does anyone know what that figure is representing?

Kurt 19th February 2021 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian
In post 20 above there is an interesting figure on the reverse side of the hilt to the one with the two peri. Does anyone know what that figure is representing?


Hi Ian ,
Maybe a prince?
Or the owner's portrait?
One can only speculate there.
Kurt

Ian 19th February 2021 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurt
Hi Ian ,
Maybe a prince?
Or the owner's portrait?
One can only speculate there.
Kurt

Hi Kurt,


Is there anything about the dress of the individual that might help with identification of the style and period?


Ian.


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