Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Interesting Unusual Rapier for comments (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14566)

Atlantia 21st November 2011 08:30 PM

Interesting Unusual Rapier for comments
 
1 Attachment(s)
Firstly I need to express my huge gratitude to my friend Jim McDougall who not only works very hard to make these forums a welcoming and informative place but also uses his valuable 'free time' to spend literally hours researching this sword for me.

Jim! You are a:

Atlantia 21st November 2011 08:34 PM

5 Attachment(s)
Right! So now to business.
Here is my latest sword.
Some stats, blade 32", overall 38". Point of balance 3-1/2" down the blade. Balance is beautiful.
I'm just going to post pictures and let Jim (if he wouldn't mind) tell you about what he has found for me.

Matchlock 21st November 2011 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia
Firstly I need to express my huge gratitude to my friend Jim McDougall who not only works very hard to make these forums a welcoming and informative place but also uses his valuable 'free time' to spend literally hours researching this sword for me.
Jim! You are a:


Hi Gene,

You took the words right out of my mouth: our friend Jim not only is the Good and Guiding Spirit of our forum but also and doubtlessly our most widely read professor and perhaps the only one to be eager enough to try to do his best and work his way into the strangest topics to be discussed here!
Thank you so much, Jim!!! You are not just our star but one of the very few true warriors around!!! :cool: :eek:

Best,
Michael

Matchlock 21st November 2011 08:56 PM

Hi Gene,

In my opinion, your rapier can be classified as a 19th c. Historismus (Victorian) hilt in late 16th c. style, with an older blade recycled.

Best,
Michael

fernando 21st November 2011 09:08 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia
... I'm just going to post pictures and let Jim (if he wouldn't mind) tell you about what he has found for me.

So we can't have a guess before that !

.

fernando 21st November 2011 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock
Hi Gene,

In my opinion, your rapier can be classified as a 19th c. Historismus (Victorian) hilt in late 16th c. style, with an older blade recycled.

Best,
Michael

Oh, i was gonna say Manufre Rle du Klingenthal 1825-1830, Poinçons COLLIOTdela HATTAIS Augustin, Mathurin
:o :shrug:

fernando 21st November 2011 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock
... Jim!!! ... You are not just our star but one of the very few true warriors around!!! :cool: :eek:

An warrior yes ... but not an old warrior :cool: :eek: :D

Matchlock 21st November 2011 09:16 PM

Exactly, 'Nando,

The blade is of early 19th c. date.

m

Atlantia 21st November 2011 09:46 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Hi gentlemen.

Another teaser pic. Notice that one shell is slightly larger?

Atlantia 21st November 2011 09:56 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Nicely peened tang

Atlantia 21st November 2011 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando
Oh, i was gonna say Manufre Rle du Klingenthal 1825-1830, Poinçons COLLIOTdela HATTAIS Augustin, Mathurin
:o :shrug:

Sorry mate, what does that mean?

Atlantia 21st November 2011 10:00 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Comparison with other rapiers and swords showing the similarity in length to 19thC sabres

fernando 21st November 2011 10:34 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia
Sorry mate, what does that mean?

That mark on the blade is so much like that of an inspector "poinçon" at the French Manufacture de Klingenthal.
... And the few letters readable on the ricasso could match with the word Klingenthal.
But let's hear what Jim has to say about this sword :cool: .

.

fernando 21st November 2011 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia
Hi gentlemen.

Another teaser pic. Notice that one shell is slightly larger?

Other things have such particularity :o :eek:

Dmitry 21st November 2011 10:48 PM

Imho this sword is a fantasy from the Victorian period. Blade is from a French officer's epee from around 1830 onward, and is marked Klingenthal, with inspector's poincon. The hilt is more subjective to ascertain, but to me it looks grotesque, and doesn't reflect the period it's supposed to emulate.
Just my $.02

Matchlock 21st November 2011 11:24 PM

Well done, Gene,

A homogeneous 19th c. collection. ;)

Best,
Michael

Jim McDougall 22nd November 2011 01:56 AM

Wow! Gene thank you and Nando and Michael for the very kind accolade :)
undeserved, but very gratefully accepted! I was more than delighted, as always, to have the opportunity to research and learn from this most interesting rapier. I am really glad he posted it here as mine is most certainly not the last word on this or any other weapon, and you guys out there are part of the collective knowledge we share here.

Case in point, well done Fernando on the Klingenthal attribution and that poincon!!! I have no resources on French swords here as most my emphasis is on Solingen, and the Solingen in script fell in place with spurious marks which they of course were known to use. In researching most efforts were to try to locate element styles which are incorporated into this hilt, which as noted are grouped from various classic pieces. What I found were mostly 16th century, and of course the north and low countries cavalry walloons type pierced disc shellguards, of the same effect in degree seen in many pappenheimer forms (though these are angled vertically in more developed hilts).

The blade, now seen as pointed out being French officers sword sets the period as noted, but the Solingen script curious. I think Michael's attribution is accurate for Victorian piece using earlier or period French blade (the Victorian era began 1837).

I had expressed to Gene that there seems to have been a practice for some time in 18th c. Solingen in producing classical type swords, such as pappenheimers for export to low countries. By this time these rapiers were of course largely obsolete, however it does seem that classical forms persisted perhaps in various auxiliary, remote or colonial and militia type circumstances such weapons may have seen longer use. It does not seem unlikely that Klingenthal might have also participated in such products. The bilobate arrangement of the discs is quite similar to 19th century French fencing epee form.

I know that in colonial New Spain, the famed Spanish cuphilt remained in use long after it had been considered obsolete, not only through the 18th century but into the 19th. Shipments of thin Solingen made rapier blades are known well into those periods, however the majority of 'cuphilts' hilted in these regions used the heavier arming 'dragoon' blades later, a classic style hilt using a 'modern' type blade in military circumstances.

I would submit, is it not possible that military fraternal groups, or auxiliary units in certain regions might select traditionally oriented weapons which represented earlier fashions and panache. This is a well balanced and classically appointed weapon , and well made despite the the admittedly workmanlike elements such as the discs and the knucklebow swell. If these rather rugged looking components seem unseemly, we should recall the 'cut steel' smallsword fashions in England with the patterns of Matthew Boulton (end of 18th century) and the 'Industrial Revolution' styling popular at the time.

Those are my thoughts, and thank you guys for the kind words and confidence....but clearly ...Fernando.....guessing????!!! NOT! :)

I think a very sound rapier which despite being anachronistic, still has some interesting possibilities in being such a well made piece with most formidable blade.

All best regards,
Jim

Atlantia 22nd November 2011 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry
Imho this sword is a fantasy from the Victorian period. Blade is from a French officer's epee from around 1830 onward, and is marked Klingenthal, with inspector's poincon. The hilt is more subjective to ascertain, but to me it looks grotesque, and doesn't reflect the period it's supposed to emulate.
Just my $.02


Hi Dmitry.

Obviously beauty is subjective, but we don't know what the hilt was meant to represent. Clearly it has elements of other and earlier swords, but it was made at a time when revival was popular and even 'grotesque' hilts were sometimes in vogue ;)

Who made it and why, I guess I might never know.
But the strange hilt is tight, and solid. The twisted wire-bound grip is a beauty and offers great grip and 'feel', the tang is solidly peened and the balance is perfect! It feels fast, solid and deadly and although I've not fenced in many years due to injury, I would feel fairly confident in demanding 'satisfaction' with it, if you dared call it 'grotesque' to my face ;)

I think it is 'fantastique'!

Best
Gene

Atlantia 22nd November 2011 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando
Other things have such particularity :o :eek:

Indeed, do you remember the 'horses mouth' shape?

Atlantia 22nd November 2011 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando
That mark on the blade is so much like that of an inspector "poinçon" at the French Manufacture de Klingenthal.
... And the few letters readable on the ricasso could match with the word Klingenthal.
But let's hear what Jim has to say about this sword :cool: .

.

Good catch Nando. Well spotted :D

Atlantia 22nd November 2011 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock
Hi Gene,

In my opinion, your rapier can be classified as a 19th c. Historismus (Victorian) hilt in late 16th c. style, with an older blade recycled.

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

I do find these late anomalies to be very interesting. I've had and seen some very fancy 19thC constructions before, but this one although plainer than many, has the edge in balance and functionality.
I'm very pleased with it :)
Thanks again
Gene

Atlantia 22nd November 2011 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Wow! Gene thank you and Nando and Michael for the very kind accolade :)
undeserved, but very gratefully accepted! I was more than delighted, as always, to have the opportunity to research and learn from this most interesting rapier. I am really glad he posted it here as mine is most certainly not the last word on this or any other weapon, and you guys out there are part of the collective knowledge we share here.

Case in point, well done Fernando on the Klingenthal attribution and that poincon!!! I have no resources on French swords here as most my emphasis is on Solingen, and the Solingen in script fell in place with spurious marks which they of course were known to use. In researching most efforts were to try to locate element styles which are incorporated into this hilt, which as noted are grouped from various classic pieces. What I found were mostly 16th century, and of course the north and low countries cavalry walloons type pierced disc shellguards, of the same effect in degree seen in many pappenheimer forms (though these are angled vertically in more developed hilts).

The blade, now seen as pointed out being French officers sword sets the period as noted, but the Solingen script curious. I think Michael's attribution is accurate for Victorian piece using earlier or period French blade (the Victorian era began 1837).

I had expressed to Gene that there seems to have been a practice for some time in 18th c. Solingen in producing classical type swords, such as pappenheimers for export to low countries. By this time these rapiers were of course largely obsolete, however it does seem that classical forms persisted perhaps in various auxiliary, remote or colonial and militia type circumstances such weapons may have seen longer use. It does not seem unlikely that Klingenthal might have also participated in such products. The bilobate arrangement of the discs is quite similar to 19th century French fencing epee form.

I know that in colonial New Spain, the famed Spanish cuphilt remained in use long after it had been considered obsolete, not only through the 18th century but into the 19th. Shipments of thin Solingen made rapier blades are known well into those periods, however the majority of 'cuphilts' hilted in these regions used the heavier arming 'dragoon' blades later, a classic style hilt using a 'modern' type blade in military circumstances.

I would submit, is it not possible that military fraternal groups, or auxiliary units in certain regions might select traditionally oriented weapons which represented earlier fashions and panache. This is a well balanced and classically appointed weapon , and well made despite the the admittedly workmanlike elements such as the discs and the knucklebow swell. If these rather rugged looking components seem unseemly, we should recall the 'cut steel' smallsword fashions in England with the patterns of Matthew Boulton (end of 18th century) and the 'Industrial Revolution' styling popular at the time.

Those are my thoughts, and thank you guys for the kind words and confidence....but clearly ...Fernando.....guessing????!!! NOT! :)

I think a very sound rapier which despite being anachronistic, still has some interesting possibilities in being such a well made piece with most formidable blade.

All best regards,
Jim


Hi Jim,

I'm sure that you can see, when such respected stalwarts of our community as Michael and Nando add their voices to the accolade, it's certainly one that IS well deserved.

We've been discussing this rapier at length of course, and as you know, I was hugely relieved when you were able to confirm that at least some of my 'hopes' for it were not entirely based on wishful thinking.
Basically that this is a genuine blade in an atypical but antique hilt of seemingly mixed style whose origin remains in question.

I am actually rather pleased to hear that the blade is possibly contemporary with the hilt.
I say this because the blade 'feels' like it belongs in this configuration. I also believe that this might have been made this way for a purpose other than decoration or 'fantasy'.

I'm rather pleased with it and it's not going anywhere anytime soon. So now that there is a record of it here, perhaps someone will pin it's origin or even see another!

Thanks for all your kind help Jim.
Best
Gene

fernando 22nd November 2011 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia
Indeed, do you remember the 'horses mouth' shape?

I mean other things ;) ; oh ... forget it :o

fernando 22nd November 2011 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
... I have no resources on French swords here ...

HERE is the Klingenthal website, already open on the "poinçons" page, with an option for either military or civilian markings.
A pity (for some) that, although this site has a three languages option, the marks section is only in french.

fernando 22nd November 2011 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia
... perhaps someone will pin it's origin or even see another!...

If the blade were German, the sword could be German, French or other.
The blade being French, the sword has a high probabllity to be also French.
... How's that for an approach :eek: .

Atlantia 22nd November 2011 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando
If the blade were German, the sword could be German, French or other.
The blade being French, the sword has a high probabllity to be also French.
... How's that for an approach :eek: .

Exactly what I'm hoping is the case Nando.
Also, if it's French and not English, I'd say there is more likelyhood of it being made for a specific purpose or commission.
Fingers crossed! ;)

Dmitry 22nd November 2011 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia
Hi Dmitry.

Obviously beauty is subjective, but we don't know what the hilt was meant to represent. Clearly it has elements of other and earlier swords, but it was made at a time when revival was popular and even 'grotesque' hilts were sometimes in vogue ;)

Who made it and why, I guess I might never know.
But the strange hilt is tight, and solid. The twisted wire-bound grip is a beauty and offers great grip and 'feel', the tang is solidly peened and the balance is perfect! It feels fast, solid and deadly and although I've not fenced in many years due to injury, I would feel fairly confident in demanding 'satisfaction' with it, if you dared call it 'grotesque' to my face ;)

I think it is 'fantastique'!

Best
Gene

Gene, one of the first swords I bought was a rapier that possibly came from a similar if not the same 1800s-early 1900s workshop. Let me know if you want to see photos of it.

Atlantia 22nd November 2011 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry
Gene, one of the first swords I bought was a rapier that possibly came from a similar if not the same 1800s-early 1900s workshop. Let me know if you want to see photos of it.

Hi Dmitry,
Yes please.

Dmitry 22nd November 2011 02:08 PM

4 Attachment(s)
.

Atlantia 22nd November 2011 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry
.

Very nice Dmitry!
Not as 'beautiful' as mine of course, but not too shabby ;)
What's the balance like? Interesting similarities to mine. Is the tang 'peened' or does the pommel screw-on? I find that this reinforces my view that these might be more than decorative!
Do you still have it? Where is the point of balance, can we have some stats please?

Thanks for sharing
Gene


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