Ethnographic Arms & Armour

Ethnographic Arms & Armour (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/index.php)
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-   -   A 19th century American boarding pike (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26980)

M ELEY 21st May 2021 03:26 AM

Lee, these are really great examples! Not only do we have the lack of swelling, a later development, but yours has just two pins securing the langets. These are definitely early 19th/War of 1812 period and a great find! Who knows! Perhaps they might have served on that fabled ship you mentioned!;)

fernando 22nd May 2021 11:20 AM

Just en passant ...
 
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick (Post 262811)
The Cathead is a beam that projects from the bow area where the stock of the anchor is secured when underway. The anchor is brought to the cathead and secured then the fluke end is 'fished' to secure that part of the anchor against the bows.
Without the cathead dropping and raising the anchor becomes problematic.
What better thing to carve on the end of the cathead than a cat's head! :)

Amazing how the nautic lexicon varies among different nations. Over here they call this apparatus Serviola (from the old Catalan meaning Hart=Deer, apparently referring to its horns) or Turco do Lambareiro (Portugueses for Turc of the sweet tooth). I don't find them here so exuberant as (American ?) Catheads, but more in the basic shape without a figure; and i realize they ceased being built in ships bows when irons (anchors) started being the 'swallow' type, by the end XIX century, i guess.


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Jim McDougall 22nd May 2021 05:09 PM

The nautical terminology is most definitely colorful and fascinating with these similes! adding the language element to the glossary truly does add further dimension.
I recall in numerous cases Fernando has described sword hilt elements, in one case where the hilt had resemblances to the horse bit and was described accordingly.
I suppose overall these kinds of descriptive terms are found in many types of descriptions, which makes etymology pretty intriguing.
There are some which I would leave alone, 'poop deck' ? :)

David R 23rd May 2021 09:54 PM

"Poop Deck" indeed! I find these conversations among the most entertaining and valuable elements of this site... and now you know why the Nihonto guys use Japanese vocabulary to describe a sword.

M ELEY 24th May 2021 02:03 AM

Ahh yes, the poop deck! Then you have the oddities of the fo'castle, the 'head' which is located at the bough/head of the ship but features the...ahem...bottom more! Captstans and in later naval jargon, brass monkeys. All very interesting. Don't even get me started on things like 'salmagundie' (a naval dish consisting of tinned/salted beef, dried pies, old bisquit complete with weevils all dumped in a sack and often beer or grog poured over it all. Yummy!)

Rick 25th May 2021 11:52 PM

Well mates, it was called the poop deck from the French for Stern; Poope
IIRC.

M ELEY 27th May 2021 06:10 AM

Agreed that 'poop' had nothing to do with the deck's name. As I noted, the head, which was located at the very front of the bough, was the latrine. Still, very strange nautical names. Where did such words as 'orlop' or 'missen' come from?

fernando 27th May 2021 12:01 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY (Post 262982)
... As I noted, the head, which was located at the very front of the bough, was the latrine...

A favourable zone in sailing ships, as the wind was almost always coming from either behind or to one side of the ship, so that everything was carried away.

Pyrard de Laval, a French navigator (1578-1623), gives a good account of the distinction between habits of crews and rules aboard from the different countries, taking Portuguese for comparison; even the differences between ships of the same nationality depending on their routes, big (huge) vessels to India being the major class.

As for lexicon, i was browsing on Nautical terms and found a 'Nautic and Military Diet', an unprecedented manuscript of the 18th. century, regulating life aboard.
This document, comprising nautic rules, terms and phrases, has no less than 590 pages.

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Rick 27th May 2021 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY (Post 262982)
Agreed that 'poop' had nothing to do with the deck's name. As I noted, the head, which was located at the very front of the bough, was the latrine. Still, very strange nautical names. Where did such words as 'orlop' or 'missen' come from?

What is the origin of the word orlop?
Origin of orlop. 1375–1425; late Middle English overloppe < Middle Dutch over-loop covering, literally, an over-leap, equivalent to over- over- + -loopen to run, extend; see leap. Also called orlop deck.

This one's a bit unclear:
mizzen (n.)
"aftermost fore-and-aft sail of a three-masted ship," early 15c., mesan, via French misaine "foresail, foremast," altered (by influence of Italian mezzana "mizzen") from Old French migenne, from Catalan mitjana, from Latin medianus "of the middle" (from PIE root *medhyo- "middle").

The sense of the English and Italian words agree, but the etymology is off because the "middle" mast on a ship is the mainmast. Perhaps it refers to a sail of "middle" size, or the thing described changed. Klein suggests an alternate etymology of the French word, from Arabic via Italian. The mizzen-mast (late 15c.) supports the mizzen-sail.

fernando 28th May 2021 11:53 AM

Am i repeating Rick ?
 
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The orlop is the lowest deck on a ship (except for very old ships). It is the deck or part of a deck where cables are housed, usually below the waterline. It has been suggested that the name originates from "overlooping" of the cables, or alternatively, that the name is a corruption of "overlap", referring to an overlapping half deck, similar to a balcony, occupying a part of the space of the lower deck from the ship. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word descends from the Dutch overloop of the verb overlopen, "to run (over); extend".
Down under, the Orlop deck of the Vasa, a 1728 Swedish ship of the line, in red.


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Rick 28th May 2021 11:01 PM

Essentially maybe Nando, but you went on to describe it I just searched for the
word origin. Yes, the first deck over the ballast which actually ties into our subject of the 'heads'.
This was where a sailor who found it too dangerous to risk being swept off the heads by a sea often retired to in severe weather and the effluence wound up in the bilge.
Imagine a three decker with a few hundred seaman. :eek:

fernando 29th May 2021 03:50 PM

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As said, these things ougth to be considered within due timeline, different cultures ... and context. During the XVI century the greed for spices (pepper) induced for the building of ships of exponential dimensions. From the average 400 tonnes carracks to the incredible "Madre de Deus", displacing 1,600 tonnes (900 of which in cargo). Built in 1589, for the India route, it was 166 feet long and 48 feet wide. It had 7 decks and 32 cannons, among other weapons, employing a crew of 600 to 700 men *.
If we add a vast number of soldiers and passengers that traveled aboard to India (and back), all these decks were packed with people, hygiene was definitely not their middle name;
" because most people do not take the trouble to go above and beyond to satisfy their needs " (Pyrard de Laval 1610).
Not that big shots had lack of poop facilities for themselves; Vasco da Gama, already in 1498 in his trip to India, is known to have taken them on board; he has offered the King of Melinde (Kenia) three (chamber) pots.

*
She was captured when returning from her second trip to India by an English fleet of six ships off the Azores. The Madre de Deus was one of the greatest lootings in history.
Down under her (accurate ?) model kept in the Navy Museum.


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M ELEY 30th May 2021 03:22 AM

Thank you folks for explaining the odd terminologies in maritime use. I just think it's strange that 'orlop' originated from Dutch, yet it was used pretty much across the board for all ships at the time. Rick, I need to buy that nautical dictionary of yours for further reading! Now...why do some say 'starboard' and others 'larboard' but they mean the same thing!?

fernando 30th May 2021 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY (Post 263093)
... Now...why do some say 'starboard' and others 'larboard' but they mean the same thing!?

It's all there Captain ... and sounds reliable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_and_starboard

fernando 1st June 2021 02:32 PM

Bak to boarding pikes ...
 
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Amazing that, over here, the term pike is only attributed to those rather long ones used by infantry (Pike men). These 'short' boarding ones we (Portuguese) call them chuços and the Spaniards, chuzos.
Just for the sake of comparison, i will show here three mid 19th century Spanish variations; the first one, four faceted, with a 9 1/2" head, a 8 foot total length and 1 1/2 pole diameter; the second one, with approx. the same length, a slightly thinner pole and a rather long head 15 1/2". And the third one, a kind of a bizarre variation, with twin short heads (less than 6") one in each end of the pole. The total length less than 5 foot, the pole diameter 1 1/4".
(Courtesy B. Barceló Rubi)

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M ELEY 1st June 2021 03:45 PM

Thank you for posting these, Fernando! I had heard of the rare, two-headed version, but only seen drawing of it and not the real deal! A very interesting type! I'd love to have one in my collection!

fernando 1st June 2021 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY (Post 263154)
... A very interesting type! I'd love to have one in my collection!

I shall see to it, Captain :D.

David R 1st June 2021 08:49 PM

[QUOTE=M ELEY;263093! Now...why do some say 'starboard' and others 'larboard' but they mean the same thing!?[/QUOTE]

They don't, starboard went back to the days of a steering oar on one side, and larboard was the other side. Eventually to avoid confusion the terms Port and Starboard ware adopted.
Why an international (for the most part) vocabulary, because the crews were (For the most part)!

Dmitry 1st June 2021 09:39 PM

A two-bladed pike?! I wouldn't want to be in the second row...

M ELEY 1st June 2021 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R (Post 263161)
They don't, starboard went back to the days of a steering oar on one side, and larboard was the other side. Eventually to avoid confusion the terms Port and Starboard ware adopted.
Why an international (for the most part) vocabulary, because the crews were (For the most part)!

Thanks for that clarification, David. I know many nautical terms came and went depending on the advancements of sailing. In my writings, I was told by one gent that the proper spelling of the front of the ship was 'bough', not bow. Yet, I haven't come across any documentation to support that unless, like our 'larboard', it is a colloquel spelling?

M ELEY 1st June 2021 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando (Post 263155)
I shall see to it, Captain :D.

I'll hold you to it! Actually, this design would have to be used very carefully on a crowded deck. Otherwise, as Dmitri pointed out (pardon the pun!), you could easily stab the guy behind you!

fernando 2nd June 2021 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY
... Now...why do some say 'starboard' and others 'larboard' but they mean the same thing!?...


Quote:

Originally Posted by David R (Post 263161)
They don't, starboard went back to the days of a steering oar on one side, and larboard was the other side. Eventually to avoid confusion the terms Port and Starboard ware adopted.
Why an international (for the most part) vocabulary, because the crews were (For the most part)!

Was the link in my post #45 a wrong source ?... :o

David R 2nd June 2021 11:05 AM

Possibly a more authoritative source.... https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/port-starboard.html

David R 2nd June 2021 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando (Post 263168)
Was the link in my post #45 a wrong source ?... :o

Not at all. Sometimes stuff just gets repeated.

fernando 2nd June 2021 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY (Post 263164)
I'll hold you to it! Actually, this design would have to be used very carefully on a crowded deck. Otherwise, as Dmitri pointed out (pardon the pun!), you could easily stab the guy behind you!

Perhaps this was a weapon for resource, for when the guys on your back were also part of the enemy ;).

fernando 2nd June 2021 11:25 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY (Post 263163)
... I was told by one gent that the proper spelling of the front of the ship was 'bough', not bow. ..Yet, I haven't come across any documentation to support that

( The Oxford Universal Dictionary Illustrated, 1933)


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M ELEY 2nd June 2021 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando (Post 263171)
Perhaps this was a weapon for resource, for when the guys on your back were also part of the enemy ;).

Ahh, well in that case, I need one of these at my work!;)

Thank you for clearing up the mystery of bough versus bow!


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