Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Another Keris for sharing/comment (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25806)

RSWORD 11th April 2020 07:22 PM

Another Keris for sharing/comment
 
6 Attachment(s)
Thanks to everyone who posted comments/thoughts on the last Keris I posted. Given how most of us are in lockdown thought I would share another interesting example.

RSWORD 11th April 2020 07:23 PM

5 Attachment(s)
A few more pictures.

Battara 12th April 2020 12:54 AM

Well this looks like a Kocet-Kocetan hilt form from Bali. Is it ivory! I also like the blade pattern.

Jean 12th April 2020 09:08 AM

Interesting and beautiful kris indeed. From the pics, I am not fully sure that the hilt is from ivory? (colour and patina). The blade is old and the carved animal on the gandik (singa?) is odd. The warangka is in rare sampiran/ jamprahan/ bancihan style. It seems that the selut was replaced as the base of the hilt was apparently cut?
Regards

RSWORD 13th April 2020 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara
Well this looks like a Kocet-Kocetan hilt form from Bali. Is it ivory! I also like the blade pattern.

Hi Jose,

Thanks for commenting. Not sure what the handle material is made from.

RSWORD 13th April 2020 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean
Interesting and beautiful kris indeed. From the pics, I am not fully sure that the hilt is from ivory? (colour and patina). The blade is old and the carved animal on the gandik (singa?) is odd. The warangka is in rare sampiran/ jamprahan/ bancihan style. It seems that the selut was replaced as the base of the hilt was apparently cut?
Regards

Thank you for commenting Jean. Very helpful information. I'm not sure what the material of the handle is and agree the coloration is not typical. I have seen some marine ivories that get this orangish tint.

It doesn't look like the base of the handle has been cut. It looks fully formed in hand with no evidence of being cut.

What is odd about the carved animal? Just the form/type?

A. G. Maisey 13th April 2020 11:41 PM

I'd like to believe that the hilt is from a whale's tooth, superbly carved and with a touch of artificial patination. The overall shape is about right for a hilt from a large tooth, the material and surface finish looks right for whales tooth. I have several with similar characteristics that are definitely from whales teeth.

But what has been done in Bali with synthetics over the last 40-50 years causes me to a bit uncertain of what I'm looking at. I think this hilt might need a hot needle test, maybe inside the tang hole.

But apart from that, a nice old keris, if the hilt is not synthetic, a very nice old keris.

Rick 14th April 2020 01:07 AM

Kocet Kocetan
 
It almost looks like some form of Bakelite; I share Alan's suspicions.
If it is a casting, then it's one hell of a nice job and I would still treasure it were it mine.

I wonder if the pin holes on the Singa are decorative, or are they there to hold a gold covering?

Jean 14th April 2020 09:20 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

It doesn't look like the base of the handle has been cut. It looks fully formed in hand with no evidence of being cut.

What is odd about the carved animal? Just the form/type?

Normally the integrated selut is flush with the base of the hilt, see attached specimen. Also the selut looks to have a slightly different colour and patina as compared to the hilt itself.
The carved animal on the gandik looks odd because it has the body of a singa and the head of a naga or kalarau. It seems welded on the blade and not integral to it.
Regards

Jean 14th April 2020 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I wonder if the pin holes on the Singa are decorative, or are they there to hold a gold covering?

I am not really qualified for replying but the "pin holes" are not evenly spaced and they rather look to be caused by a sharp tool used to force the carved figure in place on the blade before welding it? :confused:

A. G. Maisey 14th April 2020 02:06 PM

Jean, when we find a figure at the gandhik of a Balinese keris that appears to have been added after the keris has been completed, there are a couple of ways in which this can have been done, but carving the figure first and then mechanically putting it in place, followed by welding is not one on those ways.

The usual way is to weld (ie, fire weld) a piece of material in place over the gandhik, and then carve it. It is not so unusual for older keris to have a singo or other figure applied to the gandhik. This is not a defect nor is it an attempt to deceive, it is a totally legitimate practice that reflects the need of the custodian of the keris.

This particular Singo appears to be an interpretation of a Nogo Singo, also known as a Singo Barong. I believe some people would be inclined to give this one under discussion as Nogo Kikik, or maybe a Kikik Singo or Singo Gana, and really the differences between all of these representations of the singo motif are so slight that one knowledgeable person will give it one name, and other knowledgeable people will give it a different name.

But it is definitely not the head of a Kala Rauh.

However, all that said, I'm not at all certain that this particular singo was applied after the blade was completed, the stain is old, and it is not possible from the photo to see if the grain of the metal continues into the singo or not, and even if it does not, that would not really prove anything, because older Bali blades with figures at the gandhik sometimes have had a piece of iron applied at the position of the gandhik to permit carving during the initial manufacturing process, this is done for economic reasons:- plain iron is a lot cheaper than pamor, and if a lump of pamor is left at the gandhik a lot of that is wasted during the carving process.

Any way I consider this blade I would regard it as a genuine old Balinese blade, I can find no defect in it apart from the effects of time.

But the hilt, well, that's a different matter, I really cannot comment on that much from a photo, but if it is synthetic of some sort, it is still nice work. But if this hilt is the real deal, and has been carved from a whale tooth, then the probability is that the "selut" section is indeed a separate "selut" that has been put in place to hide the hole that is found at the bottom of a whale tooth.

Jean 14th April 2020 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Jean, when we find a figure at the gandhik of a Balinese keris that appears to have been added after the keris has been completed, there are a couple of ways in which this can have been done, but carving the figure first and then mechanically putting it in place, followed by welding is not one on those ways.

The usual way is to weld (ie, fire weld) a piece of material in place over the gandhik, and then carve it. It is not so unusual for older keris to have a singo or other figure applied to the gandhik. This is not a defect nor is it an attempt to deceive, it is a totally legitimate practice that reflects the need of the custodian of the keris.

This particular Singo appears to be an interpretation of a Nogo Singo, also known as a Singo Barong. I believe some people would be inclined to give this one under discussion as Nogo Kikik, or maybe a Kikik Singo or Singo Gana, and really the differences between all of these representations of the singo motif are so slight that one knowledgeable person will give it one name, and other knowledgeable people will give it a different name.

But it is definitely not the head of a Kala Rauh.

However, all that said, I'm not at all certain that this particular singo was applied after the blade was completed, the stain is old, and it is not possible from the photo to see if the grain of the metal continues into the singo or not, and even if it does not, that would not really prove anything, because older Bali blades with figures at the gandhik sometimes have had a piece of iron applied at the position of the gandhik to permit carving during the initial manufacturing process, this is done for economic reasons:- plain iron is a lot cheaper than pamor, and if a lump of pamor is left at the gandhik a lot of that is wasted during the carving process.

Any way I consider this blade I would regard it as a genuine old Balinese blade, I can find no defect in it apart from the effects of time.

Hello Alan,
I enlarged the pics and I am pretty confident that the pamor lines do not extend into the carved figure (the tail especially), however it may be as old as the blade itself as you say. Any interpretation for the scattered punch holes?
Regards

A. G. Maisey 14th April 2020 10:07 PM

I did the same thing Jean, and I also cannot see any metal grain that continues into the figure;-

"--- I'm not at all certain that this particular singo was applied after the blade was completed, the stain is old, and it is not possible from the photo to see if the grain of the metal continues into the singo or not---"

in fact, I'll go a little bit further than that, in the photo of the sorsoran where the figure faces to the left of the screen, there appears to be a thin film of something that extends past the tail --- is this what you mean by "the tail especially"? This interference with what can be seen might be residue from the weld that could have put this figure in place.

However, I would not draw a solid conclusion on the basis of this photo, at best it is only a possibility that the metal from which the figure was carved is an addition, and whether at time of manufacture or later, it would be difficult to know with the keris in hand, and , at least for me, impossible to know from a photo.

Again, from the photo I would not even take a guess at why all those little holes are there. In hand I would begin with examination under strong magnification.

Jean 15th April 2020 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
in fact, I'll go a little bit further than that, in the photo of the sorsoran where the figure faces to the left of the screen, there appears to be a thin film of something that extends past the tail --- is this what you mean by "the tail especially"? This interference with what can be seen might be residue from the weld that could have put this figure in place.

Yes, this is what I meant.


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