Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Katzbalger - request for assistance in identifying blade mark (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27086)

df1967 7th July 2021 03:55 PM

The possibility that Italian blades came to Germany in this times makes absolutely sense, as vice verse. See this book from the museum in Berlin, 2 German Katzbalger, both blades north Italy…only the Bidenhänder is completely German made. So the trading around 1500 worked even without the European Union…

df1967 7th July 2021 04:01 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Two examples of Katzbalger with Italian blades…

df1967 7th July 2021 04:02 PM

Blades north Italy

Philip 7th July 2021 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando (Post 264123)
Unfortunately my copy of this book doesn't have the the section with the marks index. It was a fellow forumite that sent me the scan (or photos) of such pages, some of them taken in a poor conditin, like the present one. Perhaps some member with te complete book will scan this page and sow it in a more clear condition ... Philip ? :cool:.
I doubt that the text goes into detailed info on the smith or his mark, anyhow; maybe only the name given to this type of symbol.


.

Sorry, Nando, my copy of [IArmi Bianche Italiane[/I] is an edition printed without the marks section, too! Same editor, I guess you and I have the economy version :(

fernando 7th July 2021 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip (Post 264164)
Sorry, Nando, my copy of [IArmi Bianche Italiane[/I] is an edition printed without the marks section, too! Same editor, I guess you and I have the economy version :(

So we stand together Filipe ... or we would; my copy was a gift; can not complain :shrug:.

cornelistromp 8th July 2021 10:19 AM

1 Attachment(s)
The castle tower mark, with 3 or 4 points, often seen on wide Italian blades from the end of the 15th century, are all punched into the blade and without latten, as far as I know.
The mark of the sword under discussion is chisseled and finished with a latten inlay. This in combination with the orb and cross does not indicate an Italian origin.I would look more towards Solingen or else.

best,
jasper

df1967 8th July 2021 01:01 PM

Also possible jasper, all which we are doing are speculating, nevertheless on a high standard. In such cases, after more than 500 years, nobody could be for sure how or who the manufacture was nore with which components they worked. Anyhow, they where for sure master of their craft, this and the historical terms made this field so fascinating for me!

Jim McDougall 8th July 2021 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp (Post 264187)
The castle tower mark, with 3 or 4 points, often seen on wide Italian blades from the end of the 15th century, are all punched into the blade and without latten, as far as I know.
The mark of the sword under discussion is chisseled and finished with a latten inlay. This in combination with the orb and cross does not indicate an Italian origin.I would look more towards Solingen or else.

best,
jasper


While the use of latten, as suggested, is notably a Solingen (or Passau?) convention, I would note that this 'castle' mark (with four crenellations) is more to the example shown in the excerpt from Lenciewicz , where it is shown as from 'Italia', however in profile it seems markedly different from the discussion sword example.


The particular configuration seen on this blade appears to me more of a 'trident', and with the obvious traditional connection to the 'gladiator'.
The use of latten does not confine its presence to Germany, however the use of the cross and orb does seem to do so.

This compounds the familiar problem of makers from one country or region, working in other areas retaining their styles, character and convention in their work despite the contrary geographic classification.
For example, cuphilts of Milanese form made in regions of Lyon in France etc.

The plot thickens :)

Victrix 8th July 2021 08:56 PM

For what’s it’s worth, Milan is also a Catholic Archdiocese headed by an Archbishop whose symbol is a double cross. ”The Archdiocese of Milan is the metropolitan see of the ecclesiastical province of Milan, which includes the suffragan dioceses of Bergamo, Brescia, Como, Crema, Cremona, Lodi, Mantova, Pavia, and Vigevano.” (source: Wikipedia).

I would just make the observation that the Katzbalger under discussion has a Germanic looking blade (IÂ’ve heard similar diamond cross section shaped blades described as Saxon in style). Solingen was wellknown to add other famous bladesmithÂ’s marks on their blades. The Italian swords shown so far with the trident mark all look typically Italian: flat and wide with very shallow fullers. ItÂ’s possible of course that the bladesmith was very versatile and also produced Germanic looking blades for the Germanic markets, or even traveled to Solingen to work there (?), although these guilds were pretty much closed shops so he would need special invitation.

fernando 9th July 2021 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall (Post 264199)
... I would note that this 'castle' mark (with four crenellations)...

Not so important but, James Mann (Wallace Coll.) doesn't see those as 'castle' marks, but 'rake-like' marks (A741, A743, A747) :o.

Jim McDougall 9th July 2021 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando (Post 264222)
Not so important but, James Mann (Wallace Coll.) doesn't see those as 'castle' marks, but 'rake-like' marks (A741, A743, A747) :o.

Well noted Fernando! and I have always thought the simile's used by him and several others for marks fascinating , 'very Rorschach' :)
cogwheels, twig, hogsback........the name game seldom touched in the discussions on edged weapons over terms they are called by.

Mann's catalog is fantastic, and one of the most valuable references I have ever bought.

Jim McDougall 9th July 2021 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix (Post 264202)
For what’s it’s worth, Milan is also a Catholic Archdiocese headed by an Archbishop whose symbol is a double cross. ”The Archdiocese of Milan is the metropolitan see of the ecclesiastical province of Milan, which includes the suffragan dioceses of Bergamo, Brescia, Como, Crema, Cremona, Lodi, Mantova, Pavia, and Vigevano.” (source: Wikipedia).

I would just make the observation that the Katzbalger under discussion has a Germanic looking blade (IÂ’ve heard similar diamond cross section shaped blades described as Saxon in style). Solingen was wellknown to add other famous bladesmithÂ’s marks on their blades. The Italian swords shown so far with the trident mark all look typically Italian: flat and wide with very shallow fullers. ItÂ’s possible of course that the bladesmith was very versatile and also produced Germanic looking blades for the Germanic markets, or even traveled to Solingen to work there (?), although these guilds were pretty much closed shops so he would need special invitation.


Well observed Victrix! and you have brought up a very salient point. The Solingen situation was indeed very controlled, and the guilds very powerful.
There are references which describe limitations to the number of swords, knives blades which could be produced in regulated periods of time.

While it is known that there were instances of a number of German smiths who went to Spain, France and Holland to work (not aware of to any Italian centers)....the situation does not seem to have been reciprocal.
The 'influences' of Italian arms and armor does seem to have been well established as conveyed into these other arms centers, and in many cases, as for example Spain, was provincially present in Italy, their arms were well known in Spain and its dominions.

Returning to the case in point, the observation that latten was not used by Italian makers or artisan engravers is intriguing, and I was unaware that this otherwise European affectation not carried into Italian centers.,

cornelistromp 10th July 2021 09:13 AM

2 Attachment(s)
with post #36 I didn't mean Italy specifically but generally punched blade marks are not inlaid with latten. (of course with exceptions).
This applies to both Italy and other countries such as Germany
The italian examples of the Castle tower mark are all punched, the mark of the katzbalger in post 1 is "incised" and inlaid with latten.

the orb and cross is (more) common on blades from solingen, eg several members of the Wundes family used these, Iohann Wundes in the second half of the 16th century. The two examples of orb and cross in this threath , attributed to someone else, I believe are the marks of Iohannes Wundes.

Then the blade geometry, a ricasso and a diamond shaped cross section can be found on the most famous katzbalger in Vienna, but also on a couple katzbalgers in Dresden, probably all of german origin.

@ fernando attached a tower and a rake ;-)

best,

fernando 10th July 2021 01:02 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp (Post 264248)
...@ fernando attached a tower and a rake ;-...

So it could be that Sir James Mann was not such romantic knight; more of a fan of gardening ;).


.

cornelistromp 14th July 2021 01:00 PM

4 Attachment(s)
the katzbalger of Ulrich von Schellenberg mentioned in post #43

fernando 14th July 2021 02:46 PM

Gorgeous :cool:.

df1967 14th July 2021 08:08 PM

From all Landsknecht swords world wide which I know or ever saw the most beautiful Katzbalger! Typicall in form and shape for this type around 1515/20! Great pics, thanks!

Philip 14th July 2021 11:36 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando (Post 264253)
So it could be that Sir James Mann was not such romantic knight; more of a fan of gardening ;).


.

Well, understandable considering the English love of and expertise in gardening. Maybe if he he had an ovicultural background, he might have seen a sheep-comb:

Rick 15th July 2021 01:13 AM

Religious Significance
 
https://woollyhistoryofbritain.wordp...-of-st-blaise/

You never know.


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