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-   -   Kebo Giri? Kebokantong? (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26580)

shayde78 5th January 2021 08:41 PM

Kebo Giri? Kebokantong?
 
11 Attachment(s)
Hi all, and Happy New Year!

I am definitively out of my depth here. I saw this item on ebay, and knew I hadn't seen this form before. So, I bid on it, and got very lucky. I did a lot of digging through the archives here, and found some information, so I trust the experts will weigh in. I have not yet learned the vocabulary specific to Keris, so please bear with me as I am bound to make a few mistakes.

From reading through the past threads, I believe this type of keris to be referred to as a Kebo Giri (luk tiga). Alternatively, it is referenced as dapur Kebokantong. It has an exaggerated gandik and the blade has luk beyond the sekar kacang (which I believe makes this even more rare).

I am eager to hear your opinions. It came with no additional dress than what is shown. I am not sure if the ganja is separate, or iras.

For what it is worth, the seller indicated it was "at least 40-50 years old". I asked her what she based that on and it was that it was her brother's, that he had died in the early 1990s, and that he hadn't traveled for years prior to his death, so he could not have collected it after the 1980s.

So, what do you think? Apologies for the dirty condition - I just received this today and am eager to get some expert feedback :)

shayde78 5th January 2021 08:43 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Some additional pictures - is the ganja separate, or iras?

kai 5th January 2021 11:54 PM

Quote:

Some additional pictures - is the ganja separate, or iras?
Definitely separate, Shayde!

Keris Kebo Kanthong Luk Lima seems to be a good description for this rare dhapur.

Looks like a good blade. Could you please take pics of the whole blade (as well as a close-up of the section with luk) directly from above (vertically), i.e. not at an angle? Thanks!

Regards,
Kai

Sajen 6th January 2021 01:21 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Here is my one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=Kebo+Giri
I guess you have seen it by your search.

And yes, better pictures would be very helpful.

jagabuwana 6th January 2021 03:15 AM

Happy New Year to you too, Shayde.
Nice find with this blade. If you intend to clean it, I'd really like to see the result afterwards.
Do you intend on getting a Jogja wrongko to match?

Sajen 6th January 2021 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagabuwana
Nice find with this blade. If you intend to clean it, I'd really like to see the result afterwards.
Do you intend on getting a Jogja wrongko to match?

Same questions from me! ;)

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen 6th January 2021 12:45 PM

Here a little bit inspiration: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=Kebo+Giri ;) ;)

shayde78 6th January 2021 08:34 PM

7 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by kai
Definitely separate, Shayde!

Keris Kebo Kanthong Luk Lima seems to be a good description for this rare dhapur.

Looks like a good blade. Could you please take pics of the whole blade (as well as a close-up of the section with luk) directly from above (vertically), i.e. not at an angle? Thanks!

Regards,
Kai


Thank you to everyone for the feedback so far. I'm attaching a few more pictures below. Forgive me, as my camera is well below standard, but hopefully these show some of the requested detail.

I know it is fraught to make too many claims when all you have are poor photographs to go by, but can blades of this form be attributed to a specific region, time/era, people? I read that they were considered well suited to those involved in primary production (farming, livestock, etc.), but is this form associated with a specific culture?

shayde78 6th January 2021 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jagabuwana
Happy New Year to you too, Shayde.
Nice find with this blade. If you intend to clean it, I'd really like to see the result afterwards.
Do you intend on getting a Jogja wrongko to match?


I certainly intend to clean it. It has a good personality I'd like to reveal under all the gunk and rust!

As for the wrongo - is the one in the link Sajen provided a Jogia Wrongko? Are there specific details that I should look for to compliment this keris? I will have to keep my eyes open for one.

How about for the hulu/hilt - should I keep it as is, or look for something else? It seems the current mount matches the other examples I've seen on here, but I could be wrong. I recently acquired a number of hilts that the seller thought were handles for files. I could perhaps select one of those unless the one pictured here is correct.

thanks again for the helpful feedback :)

kai 6th January 2021 09:46 PM

Thanks for the additional pics, Shayde!

I should not run from memory - Kebo Giri Luk Lima is probably correct. (Both dhapur are very similar and both can have luk added; the base features are slightly different with the extensive greneng on this piece pointing towards giri rather than kanthong.)

I am still not sure whether the luk in your piece have been added later: The blade in this section is considerably more slender. However, these kebo/mahesa blades are often quite worn and usually seem to have been of somewhat more moderate craftsmanship to begin with. If you compare the examples shown in the linked threads, you'll notice small deviations/inconsistancies and especially those with luk can appear a bit ungainly. Thus, these luk might as well be original.

Regards,
Kai

Jean 7th January 2021 09:13 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

I am still not sure whether the luk in your piece have been added later: The blade in this section is considerably more slender. However, these kebo/mahesa blades are often quite worn and usually seem to have been of somewhat more moderate craftsmanship to begin with. If you compare the examples shown in the linked threads, you'll notice small deviations/inconsistancies and especially those with luk can appear a bit ungainly. Thus, these luk might as well be original.

Regards,
Kai

I share Kai's opinion that the luks may have been carved later as at least on one side of the blade, the pamor pattern in the center of the blade seems to stop just under the first luk...
If you compare this blade with the one shown by Detlef, you will notice that the luks are contained within the straight blade's envelope (could have been carved from it), while the luks of Sajen's blade protrude from it.
Some blades with dapur Mahesa Kantong are quality made, see my specimen.
Regards

A. G. Maisey 7th January 2021 11:13 AM

I've just spent 30 minutes or so in Photoshop playing with the photos that show the front of Shayde's blade.

Why?

Because in these photos as published it is totally impossible for me to read the grain of the metal.

Why do I want to read the grain of the metal?

Because that is the only way that I might be able to hazard a guess at whether or not the front of this blade had the waves cut into it or forged into it.

However, even if I could read the metal grain and it told me that the waves were very probably forged in, I would not have any way of knowing if they had been forged in during original manufacture, or if they had been forged in after the original manufacture.

In fact, forging the waves into the blade after it had been finished would be far more satisfactory than cutting them in, and if the waves were intended as a talismanic enhancement, it would be the only acceptable process of alteration.

Even if I had this blade in my hands any opinion I gave on the waves would only be an informed guess. Trying to provide any sort of guess on the basis of what I can see in these images is simply beyond me.

jagabuwana 7th January 2021 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78
I certainly intend to clean it. It has a good personality I'd like to reveal under all the gunk and rust!

As for the wrongo - is the one in the link Sajen provided a Jogia Wrongko? Are there specific details that I should look for to compliment this keris? I will have to keep my eyes open for one.

How about for the hulu/hilt - should I keep it as is, or look for something else? It seems the current mount matches the other examples I've seen on here, but I could be wrong. I recently acquired a number of hilts that the seller thought were handles for files. I could perhaps select one of those unless the one pictured here is correct.

thanks again for the helpful feedback :)

The one in Sajen's link is I believe a Surakarta dress.

If you are to keep the current hulu, which is Jogja, I think it would look best paired with a Jogja wrongko. But that's very much a personal feeling and opinion.

As for specific details or things to heed when fitting this keris with dressings, I don't know. I will have to defer to the more experienced and knowledgable members of this forum for that

shayde78 7th January 2021 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
I've just spent 30 minutes or so in Photoshop playing with the photos that show the front of Shayde's blade.

Why?

Because in these photos as published it is totally impossible for me to read the grain of the metal.

Why do I want to read the grain of the metal?

Because that is the only way that I might be able to hazard a guess at whether or not the front of this blade had the waves cut into it or forged into it.

However, even if I could read the metal grain and it told me that the waves were very probably forged in, I would not have any way of knowing if they had been forged in during original manufacture, or if they had been forged in after the original manufacture.

In fact, forging the waves into the blade after it had been finished would be far more satisfactory than cutting them in, and if the waves were intended as a talismanic enhancement, it would be the only acceptable process of alteration.

Even if I had this blade in my hands any opinion I gave on the waves would only be an informed guess. Trying to provide any sort of guess on the basis of what I can see in these images is simply beyond me.


I apologize for the poor quality of the pictures. If could stop myself from purchasing interesting pointy things, I could invest in a better camera!

That said, while my knowledge of keris is limited, I do know how to read metal just a little bit. For starters, the contours of the luk stay within the margins of what the original profile of the blade would have been had it been forged without luk. This is consistent with them having been ground into a once straight blade. Even if the luk had been reforged into the blade, the curves would almost certainly deviate just a little bit from the original profile. In this example, they do not.

As for reading the grain, I can decern where the curves of the luk break the plane of the grain. I suspect if the curves were forged, the grain would follow the contours. Here, the curves cut right into the grain. It is like taking a French baguette and molding undulations into it before baking. In this case, the crust would follow the curves. However, if you took a loaf that has been baked straight, then cut curves into it, you would see where the brown crust is cut through and the white interior is exposed. I believe the later is what im seeing on this keris.

I will try to borrow a better camera and try to show you what I'm seeing. It also may have to wait until I clean the blade. That might be a bit down the road as I'm in the process of moving. According to my wife, "this is not the time to bring more [stuff] into the house!" Still, I couldn't pass up this one.

Thanks all!

A. G. Maisey 7th January 2021 08:53 PM

If the grain of the metal does not follow the curve of the edge of the blade it would be likely that the waves were cut into it rather than forged

David 8th January 2021 02:09 AM

I suspect this blade will be much easier to read once it has been clean and preferable given warangan treatment. I look forward to the clean up.

Jean 8th January 2021 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David
I suspect this blade will be much easier to read once it has been clean and preferable given warangan treatment. I look forward to the clean up.

Good luck and I am also eager to see the result!

Mickey the Finn 12th January 2021 02:03 PM

Psst... The previous owner had the hilt on backwards. I suspect that it's because people unfamiliar with keris see the greneng as having a function similar to what they think the function of "Spanish notches" on the forte of certain knives from the western hemisphere is. They see them as blade catchers on a knuckleguard. They certainly could function as blade catchers, as could "Spanish notches".
Sincerely and Respectfully,
Mickey the Finn


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