Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Hole symbol (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26452)

Anthony G. 11th November 2020 09:38 AM

Hole symbol
 
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What is the purpose of the hole?

kronckew 11th November 2020 01:57 PM

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See "What do the Holes mean?"

Mine has three.

David 11th November 2020 04:23 PM

Anthony, since this is not keris related i am moving it to the Ethno Forum. Though i do believe this topic was pretty well covered in the thread Wayne linked to. I believe you can find numerous answers to your question these days, but i also believe that for the most part they are beliefs, not facts, and that 50 years ago most of these beliefs probably had not been "invented" yet. ;)

Amuk Murugul 11th November 2020 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony G.
What is the purpose of the hole?

Hullo Anthony! :)

This may be of some use:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...37&postcount=2

note the bit on 'mata/eyelet' and 'an anomaly'.

Best,

Anthony G. 12th November 2020 12:52 AM

many thanks to all.

shayde78 14th November 2020 01:52 AM

I think they're called speed holes. They make it go faster.
There's an explanatory video here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G3ja6Hn8ps4

kronckew 14th November 2020 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78
I think they're called speed holes. They make it go faster.
There's an explanatory video here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G3ja6Hn8ps4

A great Scientist, Theodore Sturgeon, wrote a short article on the reason the perforation area of toilet paper is stronger than the perforated area. His experiments varied the dimensions and sequencing and found they got stronger in certain specific configurations as the amount of material went to zero. Ultimately he discovered how to turn this into an impenetrable force field, made of nothing as well as infinitely strong projectiles that could be propelled at light speed and penetrate almost anything (except a 'nothing' forcefield). The procedure has been censored everywhere and a copy of his dissertation cannot be located online, and further research into this phenomena has been made illegal.

I therefore postulate the holes in the Kujang are there to increase the strength of the item. I of course provide "Nothing" as proof.

...but we digress, and should return to the original topic before the Government come around looking at our torn toilet paper.

David 16th November 2020 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew
A great Scientist, Theodore Sturgeon, wrote a short article on the reason the perforation area of toilet paper is stronger than the perforated area. His experiments varied the dimensions and sequencing and found they got stronger in certain specific configurations as the amount of material went to zero. Ultimately he discovered how to turn this into an impenetrable force field, made of nothing as well as infinitely strong projectiles that could be propelled at light speed and penetrate almost anything (except a 'nothing' forcefield). The procedure has been censored everywhere and a copy of his dissertation cannot be located online, and further research into this phenomena has been made illegal.

I therefore postulate the holes in the Kujang are there to increase the strength of the item. I of course provide "Nothing" as proof.

...but we digress, and should return to the original topic before the Government come around looking at our torn toilet paper.

Wayne, i do, of course realize that you are being funny here, but as a huge fan of Theodore Sturgeon i do feel somewhat obliged to point out that he was a great science FICTION writer, not scientist. LOL! ;)
Carry on... :)

kronckew 17th November 2020 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David
Wayne, I do, of course realize that you are being funny here, but as a huge fan of Theodore Sturgeon I do feel somewhat obliged to point out that he was a great science FICTION writer, not scientist. LOL! ;)
Carry on... :)

Being a SCIFI fan myself, I know he was not a scientist, but I converted him for the dramatic purposes of my little fictional monument to him. I imagine many of our younger readers sadly have never heard of him. One of my favourites, Isaac Asimov, was, and he discovered Thiotimoline, the theoretical 4th dimensional chemical that dissolves just BEFORE you pour water on it. But doesn't if you do not actually pour.

But we digress, though we could theoretically use a bit of Thiotimoline power to return back on track. Anyway, I blame hayde78. ;) . However, his theory IS plausible, My automobile has a large hole in front of its turbocharger that allows it to go faster if I floor it. The engine doesn't go fast at all if I plug that hole.

And there are precedents. 'The Book of Ely', a post apocalyptic film with sound SCIFI principles has a Machete with a series of Holes near the spine and it's blind wielder, Saint Denzel of Washington, certainly takes advantage of them to slash faster.

Richard G 17th November 2020 12:27 PM

I'm probably going to get warned for being off topic, but it reminds me of how p*ssed off the French were when Dave Brailsford told them our cycling success at the Olympics was because of the 'special roundness' of our wheels.
Best wishes
Richard

kronckew 17th November 2020 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G
I'm probably going to get warned for being off topic, but it reminds me of how p*ssed off the French were when Dave Brailsford told them our cycling success at the Olympics was because of the 'special roundness' of our wheels.
Best wishes
Richard

But it was true! Plus the frictionless bearings helped...

...and we seem to have gone permanently off the topic rails.

gp 17th November 2020 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew
Being a SCIFI fan myself, I know he was not a scientist, but I converted him for the dramatic purposes of my little fictional monument to him. I imagine many of our younger readers sadly have never heard of him. One of my favourites, Isaac Asimov, was, and he discovered Thiotimoline, the theoretical 4th dimensional chemical that dissolves just BEFORE you pour water on it. But doesn't if you do not actually pour.

But we digress, though we could theoretically use a bit of Thiotimoline power to return back on track. Anyway, I blame hayde78. ;) . However, his theory IS plausible, My automobile has a large hole in front of its turbocharger that allows it to go faster if I floor it. The engine doesn't go fast at all if I plug that hole.

And there are precedents. 'The Book of Ely', a post apocalyptic film with sound SCIFI principles has a Machete with a series of Holes near the spine and it's blind wielder, Saint Denzel of Washington, certainly takes advantage of them to slash faster.

What ‘bout Michael Moorcock’s “Eternal Champion” cyclus with his Stormbringer and Black sword ...Elric of Melniboné, Hawkmoon, von Bek

David 17th November 2020 04:51 PM

Gentlemen, i do realize that there is not really a great deal of verifiable information available to us from the time these blades were in actual use. Many theories about the significances of these holes have been floated in modern times and, of course, there are adherents to these theories who will believe that these modern ideas are correct to the original intent of the makers. It would be as difficult to disprove these theories as it is to prove them. That said, it does seem just a little bit unlikely that holes would have been added to a weapon of this relatively small size in order to increase the speed by which it could be handled, no?
I think this might be a good time to get back on topic, if indeed anyone has any useful insights to add. ;)

kronckew 17th November 2020 04:53 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by gp
What ‘bout Michael Moorcock’s “Eternal Champion” cyclus with his Stormbringer and Black sword ...Elric of Melniboné, Hawkmoon, von Bek

Definitely. I have Stormbringer's sister, also a black sword. She only reveals her name to those whose souls she eats. (Her mother was a burmese demon). She has a bad habit of sneaking out when I'm not looking, devouring a few souls, then sneaking back like nothing happened. I found out her name by accident and thus gained power over her. She doesn't have a cross guard because she's never needed one.

Edited:
Oops - missed the last Mod post by David. let's jump back on topic. I will if all y'all do.

Rafngard 18th November 2020 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp
What ‘bout Michael Moorcock’s “Eternal Champion” cyclus with his Stormbringer and Black sword ...Elric of Melniboné, Hawkmoon, von Bek

This is perhaps both on and off topic, but I was recently struck by how Stormbringer and Mournblade bare some resemblance to Keris and/or other Tosan aji, and wondered if Moorcock might have been inspired by such.

Consider the following characteristics of two swords:

1) Black blades
Warangan stained?

2) Bareing meaningful patterns
"Runes" per Moorcock, but why not Pamor?

3) Having an intelligence/soul
Khodam/isi anyone?

4) Soul drinking
I believe it is a traditional Malay belief (mentioned in Spirit of Wood) that keris drink the semangat of anyone they injure.

Something fun to think about.

Have fun,
Leif

gp 18th November 2020 11:22 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rafngard
This is perhaps both on and off topic, but I was recently struck by how Stormbringer and Mournblade bare some resemblance to Keris and/or other Tosan aji, and wondered if Moorcock might have been inspired by such.

Consider the following characteristics of two swords:

1) Black blades
Warangan stained?

2) Bareing meaningful patterns
"Runes" per Moorcock, but why not Pamor?

3) Having an intelligence/soul
Khodam/isi anyone?

4) Soul drinking
I believe it is a traditional Malay belief (mentioned in Spirit of Wood) that keris drink the semangat of anyone they injure.

Something fun to think about.

Have fun,
Leif

indeed there has been some inspiration in the late 60ies and 70ies by and from travellers to Africa, Arabia and Asia and their stories and cultures to the likes of Moorcock and Hawkwind / Hawklords (which my friends from Hawkwind / Hawklords confirmed)

Hence the popularity of The Marakesh Express and stories about the Barbary privateers, One Thousand and One Nights next to Hindu tales / Hindu mythological wars and obviously the cold weapons involved.

Although David was perhaps correct with regards to the off topic part, perhaps with a little patience I could have explained the Eternal Champion Cyclus in more detail having their roots in ancient cultures and henceforth the cold weapons from those books could be confirmed by real good scolars to have been derived or partial copies from those Middle Eastern and Asian weapons.

Like the 2 added pics of a weapon ( a cabang ) I first got trained 45 years ago clearly has influenced the Stormbringer blade design...

kronckew 19th November 2020 10:10 AM

1 Attachment(s)
The sai is found all over in martial arts for defence against swords and is used as more of an impact weapon offensively, tho it is sometimes portrayed in films as being sharp. It is similar to the Japanese Jitte, also used as a Police Badge for officials in the time of the samurai.

Mine:

Rafngard 19th November 2020 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gp
Like the 2 added pics of a weapon ( a cabang ) I first got trained 45 years ago clearly has influenced the Stormbringer blade design...

"Cabang" is the term used in pencak silat, right?

I'm asking in part, because I've been participating in an online silat class presently with a Bruneian (and thus Malay) teacher who calls this fascinating weapon a "tekpi."

Have fun,
Leif

gp 19th November 2020 08:17 PM

.

Ian 20th November 2020 01:58 AM

Moderator's comment
 
Guys,

We have strayed far and wide from the original topic of this thread: the holes in kudi/kujang. Some digression into the fantasy sword arena has been tolerated, but modern fantasy weapons are not the focus of this forum. It appears that discussion of the original topic has been exhausted for now, so let's allow this thread to rest for a while. :)

Salamat.

Ian

Ian 23rd November 2020 07:46 PM

Enough. Thread closed.


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