Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   What is it? (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=20830)

A. G. Maisey 13th December 2015 07:15 AM

What is it?
 
3 Attachment(s)
Well, I know, but I wonder who else might know.

Here's a hint:- something of use in a religious ceremony

Sajen 13th December 2015 08:46 AM

Hello Alan,

very beautiful set of cock fighting spurs. :cool:

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey 13th December 2015 07:56 PM

Yep. Taji.

Any ideas where from?

Anybody else got some to show us?

Sajen 13th December 2015 08:05 PM

Hello Alan,

I would guess that your taji box is from Java or Madura but I am unsure.

Sadly I've sold my both boxes.

Best regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey 13th December 2015 08:24 PM

No, its from Bali.

I've got several other sets of taji I'll post some more pics when I have the time to take them.

In the 1970's it was not difficult to buy sets of taji in Bali, but then they introduced a law that made it an offense to stage cock fights for other than religious purposes, and along with this, the open sale of taji simply disappeared.

All the sets I have were bought in Klungkung during the mid-1970's. In the 1990's I managed to buy a couple of sets, but they were poor quality and the boxes were decorated with tourist style painting. I sold them, and the lesser sets I'd bought in the '70's I also got rid of. I think I've still got 3 or 4 sets, all good, but this is my favourite set.

I've never seen taji for sale in Jawa, but there are still cock fights staged in Central Jawa. When I stay in Palur, I sometimes see a fight going on off to the side of road in a little gully, on the way out to the main road.

Its interesting to see the different fighting styles of Balinese cocks.

Balinese cocks normally go at one another head on and try for a quick, brave kill.

Javanese cocks tend to avoid one another, sometimes by simply running away, but then they try to get behind the other bird and take it from the back.

Some people make quite uncomplimentary remarks about these two different styles of fighting.

The above remarks on fighting styles are generalities, there can always be exceptions.

asomotif 12th August 2016 10:12 PM

Something has drawn my attention to this thread.

Fortunately it is not closed (yet)

I wonder if there is anyone who can share their Taji.

Best regards,
Willem

Miguel 10th September 2016 07:29 PM

Hi, I have just stumbled onto this thread and noticed the " taji ". Before reading this I would not have known what they were. I am sure that I have some of these somewhere in my boxes of allsorts and will post some photos next week sometime, if possible, as I would welcome some information on them. They are not housed in a posh box like the that shown in the photos shown but the implements are very similar. Thanks for sharing.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel 14th September 2016 07:58 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Hi, I have had these for around 40 years and for most of that time they have languished in one of my storage boxes forgotten until I spotted this thread.
As I have already said I did not know what they were until I saw this thread, in fact I thought they may be points for arrows or darts, in those days I purchased anything that I considered unusual whether I knew what it was or not. Anyway as promised I have rooted them out and taken a couple of photos so you can see the spurs and carrying tubes. The spurs are, as you can see, in need of a good clean. The carrying tubes look like Bamboo. I think the two on their own are for Tourists but I am not sue of the other four. They certainly are not of the quality of the one shown in the thread but I trust they will prove of interest and would welcome any information you can provide about them such as place of origin, age whether Tourist or not etc. I forgot to mention that the spurs have both straight double edged blades and wavey ones.
Regards
Miguel

Sajen 15th September 2016 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel
Hi, I have had these for around 40 years and for most of that time they have languished in one of my storage boxes forgotten until I spotted this thread.
As I have already said I did not know what they were until I saw this thread, in fact I thought they may be points for arrows or darts, in those days I purchased anything that I considered unusual whether I knew what it was or not. Anyway as promised I have rooted them out and taken a couple of photos so you can see the spurs and carrying tubes. The spurs are, as you can see, in need of a good clean. The carrying tubes look like Bamboo. I think the two on their own are for Tourists but I am not sue of the other four. They certainly are not of the quality of the one shown in the thread but I trust they will prove of interest and would welcome any information you can provide about them such as place of origin, age whether Tourist or not etc. I forgot to mention that the spurs have both straight double edged blades and wavey ones.
Regards
Miguel

Hi Miguel,
since nobody else have respond I'll give it a try. I never have seen such Taji boxes in Indonesia what not mean that they are not Indonesian but I tend to think that they are not from Indonesia, keep in mind that cock fights are found in many countries. Here a little bit backround information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockfight
And yes, the tubes are from bamboo and agree with you that two look like tourist items. But the others are very nice and interesting ethnograhic items.
:)

Regards,
Detlef

Miguel 15th September 2016 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen
Hi Miguel,
since nobody else have respond I'll give it a try. I never have seen such Taji boxes in Indonesia what not mean that they are not Indonesian but I tend to think that they are not from Indonesia, keep in mind that cock fights are found in many countries. Here a little bit backround information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockfight
And yes, the tubes are from bamboo and agree with you that two look like tourist items. But the others are very nice and interesting ethnograhic items.
:)

Regards,
Detlef

Hi Detief, thanks for your reply and for the link. Since finding out what they are for I have done some searching and have not seen anything similar to my boxes for containing the blades. I was hoping that A.G. Maisey would know as he seems to be knowledgeable about these things, in the meantime I will continue searching and if I find anything will let you know.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel 7th October 2016 03:39 PM

Hi Detief, I have done some searching for information on Taji and up to yet have not found a great deal on boxes that are the same as mine but I did find tubular wooden boxes which when closed looked very similar but when open the blades were located in holes drilled in the circular base, the outside tube being lifted off to reveal them. The base did not have a central dividing pillar and was not connected to the lid as mine are. These were said to be from Sulawesi so I wonder if that's where mine come from. :shrug:

Regards
Miguel

Sajen 8th October 2016 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel
These were said to be from Sulawesi so I wonder if that's where mine come from. :shrug:

Hi Miguel,

could be, I really don't know since I never have seen similar ones. The Philippines could be another possible origin. :shrug:

Regards,
Detlef

Miguel 11th October 2016 07:02 PM

Hi Detief,

Thanks for your reply. I have been looking at Filipino cock fighting blades which seem to be different in their form and attachment method to those from Indonesia so I still feel that my blades and boxes are most likely to be Indonesian
Regards
Miguel

Sajen 12th October 2016 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel
I have been looking at Filipino cock fighting blades which seem to be different in their form and attachment method to those from Indonesia so I still feel that my blades and boxes are most likely to be Indonesian.

Hi Miguel,
very good possible. I only have seen boxes from Java and Bali and like you can see in complete up I have already problems to differentitate between this both origins! :D ;)

One short note, my name is Detlef and not Detief. ;) I know that it's not an easy name! :)

Best regards,
Detlef

Miguel 14th October 2016 06:43 PM

Hi Detlef,

Sorry about misspelling your name my eyesight isn't what it was. :o

Regards

Miguel

Sajen 14th October 2016 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miguel
Hi Detlef,

Sorry about misspelling your name my eyesight isn't what it was. :o

Regards

Miguel

Hi Miguel,

no problem!

Best regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey 17th October 2016 01:42 AM

Sorry for not noticing your earlier query, Miguel.

Also sorry for being unable to provide any info on your taji. In fact I know precious little about cock spurs or cock fighting. Whenever I saw interesting boxes of spurs in the days before cock fighting was banned, I used to buy them, I've got maybe 6 or 8 boxes of spurs, but since cock fights have been banned, except for religious purposes, I haven't seen any boxes of spurs.

I do have a single spur in a small bambu tube, but I have no idea where it is from, it is a bit different to the Jawa/Bali spurs I have, in that there is a loop forged into the end to facilitate tying it into place.

Miguel 23rd October 2016 05:22 PM

Thank you for your comments, I know a lot less than you, I originally thought they were arrow or dart heads having no idea they were Taji, thank goodness for the Forum :) Frommy searches on the web I am fairly sure that they are from Indonesia but which part I don't know and am still searching. Thanks again.

Regards

Miguel

A. G. Maisey 23rd October 2016 10:41 PM

Miguel, I bought a single taji many years ago, it came from a local antiques dealer.

He assured me that it was a "native surgical instrument".

In East Jawa 40-50 years ago taji were used by thugs as a weapon.

Miguel 3rd November 2016 10:48 AM

Yes I think that they can easily be mistaken for other things when you have no idea of their real purpose. I can easily believe that they were used as weapons by Thugs as they lend themselves to making a lethal stiletto or similar knife as they could be easily concealed.

Regards

Miguel

machinist 8th February 2017 10:58 PM

6 Attachment(s)
I thought I would add my taji box here. It is two sided, opening front and back with space for twelve knives of which I have ten. I know nothing about that part of the world so any info about it would be welcome. Strangely it seems to have a wood grained paper liner, I also have a small wavy blade that I originally thought was a taji but the tang is much thinner than any others I have seen and it lacks the characteristic binding attachment points that I see on other taji so I guess it is a sort of amulet?

Sajen 9th February 2017 04:59 PM

Very nice taji ayam box, I think it is from Jawa. The other item is an amulet tombak, there was a thread about similar items but I can't find it. Alan will be able to tell you more.

Regards,
Detlef

machinist 10th February 2017 03:52 PM

Thanks for the information Detlef :)

A. G. Maisey 12th February 2017 01:11 AM

Nope, Alan cannot add much to this.

Tombak amulet is probably enough.

In Jawa you see lots of this sort of thing. This is the land of "Wastenothing", so if somebody can figure out a way to turn anything at all into money, they'll do it. Mostly you see these little pamor things in the street markets, along with magical agates & etc.

Sajen 12th February 2017 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Nope, Alan cannot add much to this.

Hello Alan,

I've thought that you will be able to tell more about the origin from the taji box! ;)

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey 12th February 2017 11:56 AM

Sorry, I misunderstood.

Do you mean Machinist's taji box?

If so, to me, the embossing work looks more Bali than Jawa.

Jawa embossing work is seldom, if ever, as deep as this.

I'd guess it as Bali, but in this instance anybody's guess is as good as mine.

Sajen 12th February 2017 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Sorry, I misunderstood.

Do you mean Machinist's taji box?

If so, to me, the embossing work looks more Bali than Jawa.

Jawa embossing work is seldom, if ever, as deep as this.

I'd guess it as Bali, but in this instance anybody's guess is as good as mine.

Yup, I've meant Machinist's taji box, since I was not sure because I've never seen such a taji box.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey 12th February 2017 09:33 PM

Neither have I, but I have seen a hell of a lot of Jogja and Bali embossing.

Athanase 25th March 2017 03:31 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Here is my example of Taji from Bali (according to the description off the auction house).
Unfortunately, only one blade remains.
Traces of oxidation suggest that the box was originally articulated by bronze hinges

Bob A 24th July 2021 09:58 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Newly arrived. Supposedly from Bali, late 19th-early 20th century?. Very sharp.

These seem hard to come by in these seemingly decadent times/places.


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