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Old 26th June 2005, 09:07 PM   #1
spiral
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Default Strange cutting weapons of Mirkasims army with pix. ex.Nepal

Heres some Strange weapons of Mirkasims army, well strange to me anyway!
photos taken in Kathmando National museam.

Pata, Axes, tulwar, strange billhook/pike thing on the right! etc.

Pix. copywright Spiral JRS 2005. If used elswere please include aknowledgment.


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Old 26th June 2005, 09:44 PM   #2
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Nice display.
Just out of interest: the weapons are exhibited in a public museum. Is it possible to claim copyrights on the pics? Either they were taken legally, with explicit museum's permission, in which case the museum owns the copyrights, or illegally, in which case the museum will contest the alleged copyrights.
Some of us posted pics from different museums around the world; what is our standing on the issue?
Lawyers, anyone wants to comment?
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Old 26th June 2005, 10:33 PM   #3
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Thanks!

Well actualy I offcialy paid the museam for the right to take any photos I wished for my own publication. Therefore, I own the copyright.

Lawyers may disagree if they wish. But thats my stance!


I dont generaly publish the pictures Ive taken , with the connivance of museam staff in England, who looked the other way , while I took them.


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Old 26th June 2005, 11:30 PM   #4
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Quote:
Lawyers, want to comment?

Would be happy to - my fee is $300 per hour, minimum consultation time 2 hours, payment in advance, no PayPal or credit cards.

("Knowledge and time are a lawyer's only stock in trade." - Abraham Lincoln, a fairly successful Illinois criminal defense lawyer who went into politics later in life).

For free, I wonder how Mir Kasim's captured weapons came to be in the Kathmandu museum.

Battle of Buxar - In June 1763 under Major Adams British army defeated Mir Kasim the Nawab of Bengal. Though they with a smaller army against Mir Kasim, the English had victories at Katwah, Giria, Sooty, Udaynala and Monghyr. Mir Kasim fled to Patna and took help from Nawab Shujauddaulah and the Emperor Shah Alam II. But the English under the General Major Hector Munro at Buxar defeated the confederate army on 22 October, 1764. Mir Kasim fled again fled and died in 1777. After winning the Battle of Buxar, the British had earned the right to collect land revenue in Bengal, Bihar and Orissa. This development set the foundations of British political rule in India. After the victory of the English in Buxar Robert Clive was appointed the governor and commander in chief of the English army in Bengal in 1765. He is claimed as the founder of the British political dominion in India. Robert Clive also brought reforms in the administration of the company and the organization of the army.
http://www.gatewayforindia.com/hist...sh_history1.htm

Last edited by Berkley : 26th June 2005 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 27th June 2005, 12:25 PM   #5
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Great! We are legit.
I have been warned several times by our house lawyers not to post anything currently on e-bay, so I am trying to be careful whenever any other legal argument is mentioned on the Forum.
As they say in Russian, " Having been scalded by hot milk, one starts blowing on a cow".
And now... for something completely different!
Pic 1: the small Pata seems to have central rib. Usually, we think about patas as slashing weapons. This one is short, stubby and reinforced. Thus, it is more likely to be stubbing, which makes it a kind of Katar. I remember Artzi posted his opinion about evolution of Pata/Katar family. This one is clearly a hybrid or a transitional step.
The straight swords with old Indian handles are very thin and long. Are they estocs?
Pic 2: are there any inscriptions on Tulwar blades? It looks like the entire blades are covered in etched scripts, similar to Islamic swords, but I do not remember seeing many Tulwars like that.
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Old 27th June 2005, 02:23 PM   #6
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1: That pata on the left caught my attention, too. A rather unusual shape, but it being a transitional form makes perfect sense.

2: Even if Spiral hadn't paid for the right to take the photos, the copyright is his. It is the depiction, not the thing depicted, which is copyrighted. Someone esle could take nearly the same photo and have an independent copyright, for example, but Spiral has the right to dictate how his photos are used (or not used).

3: For the amount of free legal advise I give out, you guys should put me on retainer.
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Old 27th June 2005, 02:47 PM   #7
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Talking

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Old 27th June 2005, 02:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch
1: That pata on the left caught my attention, too. A rather unusual shape, but it being a transitional form makes perfect sense.

2: Even if Spiral hadn't paid for the right to take the photos, the copyright is his. It is the depiction, not the thing depicted, which is copyrighted. Someone esle could take nearly the same photo and have an independent copyright, for example, but Spiral has the right to dictate how his photos are used (or not used).

3: For the amount of free legal advise I give out, you guys should put me on retainer.

By the same token, some of you (no names, medical confidentiality!) asked my advise on behalf of their friends with erectile dysfunction.
To you, guys, I would have recommended magic cure for free, but your unnamed friends have to pay the bill: this is not Russia or England, after all!
I prefer to get my honoraria in shashkas.
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Old 27th June 2005, 03:17 PM   #9
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Well chaps, The little Pata may be about 3 ft long as I seem to remember.

The sword has writing or squiggle patterns anyway & carved animal figures as I recall.

Hers some more unusual pieces!

Kora & a sword {khanda I guess?}with a 6ft plus blade!

Cheers for the history lesson & legal perspective guys!

Spiral

Photo. copywright Spiral JRS 2005. If used elswere please include aknowledgment.
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Old 27th June 2005, 03:48 PM   #10
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Spiral,what an amazing group of weapons! The kukri, which by itself would be a stunner, looks absolutely dull when contrasted with the fantastic koras, the ram dao, and the khanda and shield! Did giants really walk the earth?
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Old 27th June 2005, 05:45 PM   #11
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Cool weapons.

Not being a lawyer, I'll stay out of that discussion

However, I think that the thin-bladed swords might be "firangi" blades, which i believe were European rapier blades (trade blades) fitted with Indian handles.

As for the patas, I thought the bigger ones got up to 4' long. 3' would look stubby if this is so, although I think it's a saner length. Then again, the losers had the short swords, so go figure.

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Old 27th June 2005, 05:47 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berkley
Spiral,what an amazing group of weapons! The kukri, which by itself would be a stunner, looks absolutely dull when contrasted with the fantastic koras, the ram dao, and the khanda and shield! Did giants really walk the earth?

I also had a feeling that the weapons were gigantic.
Then I realised we had no reference point ...
Any info on the actual size?
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Old 27th June 2005, 05:58 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fearn
Cool weapons.

Not being a lawyer, I'll stay out of that discussion

However, I think that the thin-bladed swords might be "firangi" blades, which i believe were European rapier blades (trade blades) fitted with Indian handles.

As for the patas, I thought the bigger ones got up to 4' long. 3' would look stubby if this is so, although I think it's a saner length. Then again, the losers had the short swords, so go figure.

Fearn


They look awfully thin even for rapiers. |
The word rapier comes from Spanish "espada ropera", dress sword. The older European swords supplying their blades for the "firangis" were pretty broad and sturdy. Dress swords were semi-ceremonial and, if used for fighting, were mostly (not entirely!) for stabbing and as such often triangular.. They were shortish (one would not expect a fancy gentleman to drag a long piece or iron oved the dancing floor!).
The ones in the Nepalese museum look very long, narrow and flat: slashers mostly, like patas. Would be interesting to know their actual dimensions: that would help a lot.
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Old 27th June 2005, 07:51 PM   #14
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For perspective of size, cases 1 & 3 {internaly} are the same height as a Brown Bess musket. {60 inches.} not sure about case 2.

Would like to have recorded more data than I did, other than photos, & sparse notes & did with some kukri, but theres probably between 1000 & 1200 weapons on display. {manily kora, kukri, khanda, katar & tulwar.}

I could have happily stuided each piece for several hours!

If only!

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Old 27th June 2005, 08:14 PM   #15
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I have been to Topkapi and Askeri Muze in Istanbul and know the feeling....
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Old 27th June 2005, 09:28 PM   #16
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Spiral: Thanks for sharing these.

Berk: You're not charging enough.

Rick/Mark: That looks about right to me. Cash, the gift that shows you really care!

Ariel: That doesn't sound like brain surgery.
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Old 28th June 2005, 03:45 AM   #17
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Quote:
Berk: You're not charging enough.

My absolute favorite, non-privileged quote from a prospective - but unaccepted - client:
"Money! - you want money?"
If I'm lyin', I'm dyin'
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Old 28th June 2005, 01:38 PM   #18
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Interesting collection of weapons. It reinforces India's place as the homeland of unusual and exotic weapons. Just when you think you've seen em all, something else come along. Any interesting pieces of armour there BTW?

I'm no lawyer, but I have a feeling that if we post our own photos taken with our own cameras, then they are ours to do as we wish with. Especially as we are not putting these pics in a book, selling it and making loads of dosh!

On another point, I noticed that in several David Nicolle's Osprey books, he has photos of objects from museums all over the word, but he always has the words "authors photo" between brackets at the end of the caption.
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Old 30th June 2005, 10:55 PM   #19
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Default Gen Munro,gets around

I wonder if that General Munro is the same one who lost Ft. Edward to Gen. Montcalm and the Hurons in 1759. Re;Cooper,Mohegans,last one.
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Old 1st July 2005, 01:09 AM   #20
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Smile Nope

That would have been George Munro .
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1175.html

Google always has an answer .
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Old 2nd July 2005, 01:58 AM   #21
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Default Wrong Munro

And Alex T. hits the buzzer! Great Koras! Judging by the size of the Dahl,the Kuk and the Koras are a good size!
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Old 4th July 2005, 03:15 PM   #22
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Sorry Aqtai, no armour, dont think the gurkhas have used it or even saved it when theve captured it.

Guess they tend more towards attack than defence?

Those Kora are big! like around 4 ft long, the Dahl was the biggest Ive seen!

Thanks for the history lesson guys!

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