Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 26th June 2005, 07:28 PM   #1
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 3,904
Default Afghan Shashkas

We have not discussed these beasties in a while. Here are 3 from my collection.
They are bigger, heavier and more curved than the usual Caucasian shashkas from which they derive (Lebedynsky's " pseudo-shashkas). The Central Asians were likely impressed by the Cossack weapons when the Russians invaded what is now Uzbekistan and the surroundings in 1850s.
Both sport stamps of the Mazar-i-Sharif armoury (legally Afghanistan, ethnically Uzbek).
Notice the unusual arrangement of the scabbard rings: the hanging one on the convex part of the scabbard, the fixed, rectangular one on the "body" side of the scabbard, close to ricasso. Both have the so-called Asian construction, i.e. handle sunken into the scabbard half-way. I am wondering, whether this manner derives from Khybers.... The Caucasian construction had the handle all the way out.
The blades are of simple steel, the smaller one with 3 bronze (brass?) dots (What is the reson?) and a false-edge tip (Kilij-like). The handle strap and the bolster are silver and have typical Central Asian engravings.
The bigger one is Koranically etched all over and has a very simple and sturdy steel bolster.
Attached Images
     
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2005, 07:42 PM   #2
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 3,904
Default

To be continued:
Here is a typical very old Circassian shashka between her two Uzbek cousins.
Notice the size difference: Caucasians valued their weapons light and relatively small. I heard the theory that this was due to geography (mountainous and restricted Caucasus vs. open steppes and deserts of Central Asia). I doubt it: there are tons of mountains in Uzbekistan and Afghanistan and one does not need a horizon-wide view to wield a bigger blade. Another hypothesis was the heavy physique of the Central Asians. That is also not likely: one should just see the Chechens, Georgians and the rest of them. These buggers filled half of the Soviet national wrestling team!!
But the handles are very different: almost cylinrical with semicircular "ears" in the case of the Caucasian shashka vs. widened toward the "pommel" that is also quite elongated. Very easy to distinguish.
Attached Images
  
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th June 2005, 07:46 PM   #3
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 3,904
Default

And the last one: a very old one and quite crude.
However, look at the distal part of the blade: it narrows almost in a bayonet-like fashion. This is very similar to some Tatar sabers, especially the excavated ones. Perhaps, it is a trait common to old Mongolian blades.
Attached Images
  
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2005, 12:29 AM   #4
Rivkin
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 655
Default

Thank you very much for showing them to us ! I'll be honest - most of the things people show here have lots of gold and silver, and koftgari this and scabbard that, but I really love to see such simple and functional weapons, as these ones.

I'm terribly sorry for saying such things by memory, with no citations, but:

a. Georgian mecenaries have been in Afghanistan since late XVII century, so there can be another source for shashkas being brought to Afghanistan.

b. I think most of caucasian nations had their copies of a mongolian "armor-piercing" point, but I've never seen it in shashka mounts - only in sabre-style mounts. Thank you very much for sharing it with us !
Rivkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2005, 02:19 AM   #5
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,591
Default

Ariel,
Outstanding display of these fascinating variations of shashkas!! It seems these are seldom ever seen in collections, and there is little on them in most books except Lebedynsky's "Les Armes Orientales" (pp.75-76).
It seems that the Afghans were typically rather large in comparison to most ethnic groups in these regions, so the huge size of these sabres is not surprising. These really are most impressive.

I think it is interesting how the Mongol influence is reflected in the blade features, the peak on the armor piercing point and the almost vestigial yelman on the other.

Thank you so much for posting these together so the comparisons can be seen and the key features on the Afghan examples shown.

It seems to me that Georgia, one of the key regions of the Caucusus, is not typically associated with using the shashka, except for the distinctly identified Mingrelian versions with dramatically canted hilts (anybody out there have a photo of one of these with the skirted scabbard?)
Do you know of Georgian examples of the traditional shashka form and is there any particular identifying characteristic about them?

Once again Ariel, thank you for sharing these excellent examples !!!

All the best,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2005, 02:59 AM   #6
Rivkin
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 655
Default

I really don't know how Afgans got their shashkas, so I shoud've just listened, but here is an example of a georgian shashka:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...hlight=georgian

Concerning why caucasian shashkas were so light what I was told is that since the first time one would use his shashka would most likely be at a competition - chopping rugs, folded a few times, and so on, one had to buy a weapon that was not only usable in combat, but was also competitions-ready.

During competitions it was considered a bad tone to use heavy shashkas, because it was showing that the owner has no skill, but relies entirely on the blade's mass.

Concerning powerful caucasian physique - I think it's more nurture than nature, and all nations that live in physically challenging environment (whether it's wrestling-loving parents, or it's simply a tough medieaval life). Genetically southern caucasian haplotype EU9 is shared by nations that are known not be body-builders by a very long shot.
Rivkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2005, 04:07 AM   #7
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,591
Default

Hi Kirill,
I guess I could have worded that better What I meant was not that Georgians did not use shashkas, but the only Georgian form I've seen is the strange sharply canted and hooked pommel type referred to as 'Mingrelian'. These are extremely rare and I've seen them in illustrations, but I hadn't seen a standard form shashka attributed to Georgia. Obviously if everyone else in all the surrounding regions adopted the shashka they must have had them as well.Thank you for posting the link to that thread.

Good observations on the physique perspective and interesting notes on the heft of the Caucasian shashkas, these guys were incredible swordsmen and its fascinating to hear about these competitions.
All the best,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2005, 04:58 PM   #8
ham
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 190
Default

Gentlemen,

Other than a passing similarity, I don't believe there is any formal relationship between the shashka and these Afghan sabers. Rather, they are very late 19th century developments based upon Central Asian, specifically Bukharan, weapons. Most of them were assembled at Mazar-i-Sharif arsenal, thus the high percentage of blades struck with this mark (I think Jim went into detail on this in another thread a few days ago.)
What took place was a three-tiered evolution-- and what we are seeing in the images above is the final one. See T. Flindt's article in Elgood's Islamic Arms and Armour on Bukharan arms p. 21-23 for the first form-- the grips were adapted to a relatively light saber blade directly from the pesh qabz and were made of horn, ivory, actively grained or burled wood and in some cases, jade. They were attached to the tang with 5 large rivets. In the second form, the grips became narrower, the ears more arched and the ferrule was made in metal, usually silver-- this shows influence from a particular variant of kard-grips used in N. India. Blades of this form tend to be lighter than in the first. The Moser Collection contains several examples of this type, see Orientalische Sammlung Henri Moser Charlottenfels p. 342. They are often richly decorated; some in the Ermitaj, St. Petersburg are gilded and paved with turquoises.
The final evolution is the Afghan military design based on the latter, virtually always gripped in the same tough but plain wood from which gunstocks were cut. Mounts tend to be plain iron though occasionally one finds engraved silver as in the image above-- in no example of which I am aware do these engraved motifs approximate those usually found on shashkas in the slightest-- they are typically Afghan. Sabers with pommels which duplicate those found on shashkas appear to date to the last period of production 1890s- 1920s when there would have been ample opportunity to copy them directly, however this factor did not contribute to the evolution of the form. Another saber of this type which directly emulates a shashka is in the Linden Ethnographic Museum, Stuttgart. It was copied inch by inch from a shashka down to the belt with small silver fittings but is not to my knowledge published.

Sincerely,

Ham

Last edited by ham : 27th June 2005 at 05:16 PM.
ham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2005, 06:01 PM   #9
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 3,904
Default

Interesing.
Can you post pics from that article substantiating the evolution story?
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2005, 08:21 PM   #10
Rivkin
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 655
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Hi Kirill,
I guess I could have worded that better What I meant was not that Georgians did not use shashkas, but the only Georgian form I've seen is the strange sharply canted and hooked pommel type referred to as 'Mingrelian'. These are extremely rare and I've seen them in illustrations, but I hadn't seen a standard form shashka attributed to Georgia. Obviously if everyone else in all the surrounding regions adopted the shashka they must have had them as well.Thank you for posting the link to that thread.


While I think that in the presence of such experts as you and ariel I probably should not voice my opinion, if I think about the same megrelians "shashka" you think about, then:

There are two types - one is megrelian palash and another one is a "skirted" palash-sabre ?

AFAIK megrelian palash is extremely rare because it was a weapon of distinction, and very often was not even designed for combat. For example, Dadiani-Murat's sword has a hilt going at nearly 90 degrees to the blade (it's obviously impossible to use this sword).

Concerning the skirted version, it looks so cute on pictures, but I've never seen one in reality.
Rivkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th June 2005, 08:24 PM   #11
Rivkin
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 655
Default

Can I aslo add that this circassian guy is really fantastic ? It's such a treat to see the "Real deal", and not those late turisticky or regulation thingies (I'm kind of trying to flatter ariel to post some more pictures of his shashkas ).
Rivkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2005, 03:02 AM   #12
Rivkin
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 655
Default

Sorry for off-topic - but while we are at shashkas, here is the one that really puzzled me (well, I don't really now anything about shashkas).

The blade looks trade Solingen, may be even early XIX century, another signature - wiccan dedication, hilt looks ???, scabbard looks southernish and may be quite a modern thing - Turkey, Persia ? Interesting that the belt is on the "wrong side". Just since we started to talk about non-caucasian shashkas - what is it ?
Attached Images
    
Rivkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2005, 03:49 AM   #13
ham
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 190
Default

Rivkin,
It's Palestinian, the grip, wiggle-engraving on the scabbard and suspension system are all characteristic of area Bedouin weapons.

Ariel,
I am traveling at present, I am sure some Forum member can post those images for you if you don't have the books yourself?

Ham
ham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th June 2005, 08:04 PM   #14
B.I
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 486
Default

not my field, but can help with hams images from elgood and moser.
am guessing the moser reference is the 1955 book, as your page number (342) is chainmail, but have included the pieces i thought appropriate (pg 307)
sorry for the quality but am using a dig camera, not a scanner.
Attached Images
    
B.I is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th June 2005, 04:54 AM   #15
ham
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 190
Default

B.I.,

Glad to know someone has these books. I was referring to plate 342 in Moser showing the secondary form of Bukhara sabers, in my copy the pages with plates are not numbered hence I used that number but neglected to label it as such, sorry.
Thanks for taking time to post the images, very kind indeed.

Sincerely,

Ham
ham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2006, 06:34 PM   #16
ausjulius
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: musorian territory
Posts: 244
Default

hello from the caucasus,,

ok.. firstly,,
about the phisical size thing...
caucascian people generaly are not very larg or muscualr,, as all people living in high altetudes there genetics tend to keep the short, and slim,
mostly the men and women are of a similar height,
as the laqnd levels out the people tend to be taller,,
the average male height would be maybe 5 foot 7 or so,,
some are much bigger and some are much shorter,
the wrestling comes not from size but from the large interest in wrestling and the large amount of locals enguaged in the sport,, hence the state even now in cash strapped times premots competitions in wrestling teakwondo , judo and other martial sports,,

the wilder folk of the caucasus,, seem to be of a quite mixed ethnicity,, but the more settled people , armenians , georgians , aziris , seem to be mostly ethnicly homogenius,
mostly the south caucascians seem to be orientials,, as people in persia and turkey , and greece and the middle east..
while the north caucascians seem to be another ethnic group, or mix of ethnic groups ,
some of the lowland people are decended from the mongols and other central asian and siberian invaders, some are natives to the area, others are decended from indoeuropean groups who invaded the area 3000 years ago,,

the afgans seem to me , form seeing many to be also a not very large folk, although the european ones,, , by european i mean they look as europeans , blond or brown hair and such, seem on par with europeans in size , although thinner,,

in afghansitan and other areas in persian ans such for along time there has been a presence of both russians and at times caucascians,, either trading things , or as mercenaries,
the making of shashkas in central asia predates the russian invasions , and no doubt originates form contact with caucascians , you must remember that dagestan is only seperated form central asia by the caspian sea,,
also before the russian invasions there was immergtration to central asia , by russians , tatars,, and also by peoples atwar with imperial russia, some of there were causcians , but many were nogai , mongol peoples living in sothern russia,, most were exsterminated buy the russians ,, the only remaining group in in north dagestan and north east chechnya,, many of the nogai immergarted central asia , many setteling in uzbekistan ,
and assimilating in with the locals, also the kalmykis , living in sothern russia came under prusser and many immergrated back to centra asia,,
although many stayed behind ,, in what is now kalmykya,
these people all used one form or another of the caucascian shashka,
to this day there is tatars in both china and afghanistan ,,
these weapons were introduced by these migrations , hence there was shashkas made in egypt,, jordan , turkey, serbia, east turkmenistan (occpied in the 50s by china)
central asia, iran,, ect ect ,
the central asian and afghan shashkas are more heaverly bladed than the caucascian ones , this is for afew reasons,,
one is the technique used in combat,, another is the change in combat in the caucasus,,
afghanistan and cantral asia amour was still common in the 19th centuary, but in the causasus due to heavy fighting wiht the russians it was discarded as being unweildly, earily shashkas have much heavier balades and are generaly longer,
the traditional caucascian shashka has the handle going into the sheath , like on a finnish pukko knife,,
only the russian made shashkas have the handle on the outside, this was for perade and dress perpouses ,a nd because it looked better when hung on the wall,
these swords are made in zlatoust or tula in siberia,,
most cossaks used the caucascian form with the handle going into the sheath , the afghan swords derived from the caucascian not russian style,
many caucascian metla workers worked in centralasia in the 19th centuary and many immergrated to live in some of the majoir cities,,
ausjulius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2006, 10:28 PM   #17
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 3,904
Default

Welcome to the Forum, Ausjulius!
Over here we have plenty of people interested in SE Asian weapons, but the Caucasian field is rather underpopulated. Glad to see another "Shashka Maniac".
Your points are very well taken and in agreement with the older sources. Hope to see your contributions more often.
Do you collect Caucasian/ Central Asian weapons?
We would all very much like to see your toys.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2006, 01:31 PM   #18
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 3,904
Default

You are all correct, of course, to note the more ancient penetrations of Caucasian weapon traditions into Central Asia. The old Uzbeki swords are very reminescent of Shashkas, but there is a crucial difference: the "eared" pommels appear later in the development. This was, most likely, the most direct influence of the Caucasian Shashka (in it's Russian Imperial Cossack mutation) on the Central Asian swords. That's what I was talking about and these are the examples I showed. Lebedynsky calls them Pseudo-shashkas not for nothing!
I would love to get my hands on a really old Uzbeki sword, both in it's Shamshir and Shashka -like varieties, but to call them rare would be an understatement of the century: most were destroyed by the Russians when they occupied Central Asia first in the 1860-70s and when they suppressed the nationalist Basmach movement in the 1920s.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2006, 03:54 PM   #19
spiral
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
Default

Fascinating pieces Ariel,

You mention thier size, What actual weights, dimensions & point of balance are they?

Thankyou.

Spiral
spiral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th July 2006, 12:15 AM   #20
ausjulius
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: musorian territory
Posts: 244
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Welcome to the Forum, Ausjulius!
Over here we have plenty of people interested in SE Asian weapons, but the Caucasian field is rather underpopulated. Glad to see another "Shashka Maniac".
Your points are very well taken and in agreement with the older sources. Hope to see your contributions more often.
Do you collect Caucasian/ Central Asian weapons?
We would all very much like to see your toys.



hi thanks , i work in dagsetan in the factory, "KIZLYAR" situated in the city of kizlayr in northen dagestan , i am the "technical advisor" basicly the odd jobs guy,
we are the largest producter of hunting knives in russia , and we are, i think the largest single producer of damascus knives in the world, we make damasucs swords, art knives pocket knives , ect ect ,we also have a nother department in st petersburg making european and russian style knives and swords,

i have afew, but havent been able to idulge my interest in collecting antiques, to much time dealing with new ones,,
in the capital mahachkahla there is amny antique shops selling weaponry , old pistols, swords, form dagestna and russia and other places, some have quite heigh prices, others quite decent , i saw a bulat kard blade for 500 rubles once :0 should have taken it ... ill post some pics later,, i may be in the capital soon and can take fotos of the museam , they have many very rare swords , including several dagestani zurkas, two bladed swords ,
they also have a very finely made shashka from kubachi, im told it is one of the finest condition and quality shashkas made in dagestan,
also i think some blades made form machine needled , making a very interesting pattern,
in kizlyar we have a small museam with some weaponry also,,

my personal facination is mongolian and other nomad waeponry ,kazakhstan ,kirgiz,, ect ect.. but its quite rare , the tarta and other uralic and siberian people also have fine swords
ausjulius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th July 2006, 12:22 AM   #21
ausjulius
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: musorian territory
Posts: 244
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
You are all correct, of course, to note the more ancient penetrations of Caucasian weapon traditions into Central Asia. The old Uzbeki swords are very reminescent of Shashkas, but there is a crucial difference: the "eared" pommels appear later in the development. This was, most likely, the most direct influence of the Caucasian Shashka (in it's Russian Imperial Cossack mutation) on the Central Asian swords. That's what I was talking about and these are the examples I showed. Lebedynsky calls them Pseudo-shashkas not for nothing!
I would love to get my hands on a really old Uzbeki sword, both in it's Shamshir and Shashka -like varieties, but to call them rare would be an understatement of the century: most were destroyed by the Russians when they occupied Central Asia first in the 1860-70s and when they suppressed the nationalist Basmach movement in the 1920s.


hi , there was actualy an uzbek site that pictured many old uzbek weaponry,, i think it was some form of government site,,
it had some pictures of uzbek amour and swords, including several older shashkas,,
some rather broad and curved in the blade, almost like some of the mongol and tarta swords,,
handles lookde as wood or horn, riveted,,
actualy in centeral asia these tiems are not that uncommon , , just hard to find , there is not much antiques bussiness in these areas , some amny times these items are kept in peopels homes, and many times not properly cared for,, or they are in huge state stokpiles of museam articles,,
ive seen some uzbek sheilds and lances for sale,, looked as greek style almost,, round and painted with emblems,, nicely made,, and good condition for there age,, which makes suspect theft form a museam ...
ausjulius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th July 2006, 10:01 AM   #22
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 3,904
Default

Can you give the address of the Uzbeki site as well as of other Central Asian or caucasian sites?
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th July 2006, 07:28 PM   #23
ausjulius
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: musorian territory
Posts: 244
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Can you give the address of the Uzbeki site as well as of other Central Asian or caucasian sites?

hi , ill see if i can find it , it was about 4 years ago i saw it .... theres not many actualy ,, i know of some government type ethnic folk art pages,, ill see what i can find , ok,,
ausjulius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th July 2006, 11:51 PM   #24
ausjulius
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: musorian territory
Posts: 244
Default links to central asian weaponry,

ok , couldint find the museam page.. but still heres some pics of some stuff,
http://intangiblenet.freenet.uz/en/kaz/kaz3211.htm
http://intangiblenet.freenet.uz/en/uzb/uzb3211.htm
http://intangiblenet.freenet.uz/en/kir/kir3211.htm
http://intangiblenet.freenet.uz/en/tur/tur3211.htm

uzbek knife, pichok
http://knifefoto.narod.ru/fmexican.htm
http://www.iranian.com/Arts/2001/March/Tajik/knife.html

http://search.stores.ebay.com/Centr...saselZ129243852
theses a guy on ebay selling them , theyer made form decent carbon steel , but not worth 40$ us ,, thjere is actualy a factory which makes them , i think also in kazakhstan , onetime or another they had a web address :P
sorry didnt have time to finde anything decent , when i do ill post it,
ausjulius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th July 2006, 03:27 AM   #25
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 3,904
Default

Ausjulius, where have you been all these years?!!!!
You are a treasure of information!
Are these weapons historically accurate? Kazakh sabers appear to have Tibetan motives (pommels, for example). One Turkmen sword (apparently, a museum piece) looks very Chinese.
I looked at the Amazon.com for the Atlas of Central Asian arts, Bishkek, 2002 (apparently multivolume) and could not find it.
Can you get it for me? Just let me know the price of the books and shipment to the US and I shall send you a check or Paypal it right away.
Any way to get my hands on the really old swords/daggers?
You can send me a Private Message.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th July 2006, 03:44 PM   #26
ausjulius
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: musorian territory
Posts: 244
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Ausjulius, where have you been all these years?!!!!
You are a treasure of information!
Are these weapons historically accurate? Kazakh sabers appear to have Tibetan motives (pommels, for example). One Turkmen sword (apparently, a museum piece) looks very Chinese.
I looked at the Amazon.com for the Atlas of Central Asian arts, Bishkek, 2002 (apparently multivolume) and could not find it.
Can you get it for me? Just let me know the price of the books and shipment to the US and I shall send you a check or Paypal it right away.
Any way to get my hands on the really old swords/daggers?
You can send me a Private Message.


.. i guss i was in dagestan..:P
yes they are accurate , the kazakh folk general used swords like that of the mongols and altai and tuvan folks,
although there is 3 hornds of kazakhs, each alittle different, and kazakhstan is a multi ethnic nation, meaning that not only are there many different peopel living in kazakhstan now,, (russians , koreans, germans , baltics, tatars,, dagestani nationals , chechens,, jews,,, tajiks,, uzkeks,, russian cossaks,, ect ect ,)
but there is also a big variation in the national look of the poeple , some will looks more as europeans , some more as poepls form afghansitan or tajikistan , others may look like a mongol or siberian but be blond haired and blue eyed (aspecialy with the mongol kazakhs,, which many are blond,, aspecialy when theyer kids.)
so there is quite a variation in the folk,,
this sword would be form east kazakhstan , , in the west the swords are more russian/cuacascian , shashkas, shamshir and such,, and in the north part very much as swords of the tartas and uralic folks ,
there is a large percent of kazaks in what is not china and also about 300000 in mongolia,,
the sword looks in a style of this , this type of decoration was and is common on many kazakh items , as in the style of the mongols,, ill post you a pic of whats labled as a "sword sharpener" but it looks to me like a cercumsision ,, this holds to this type of decoration, it is from kazakhstan by the look
http://www.bathantiquesonline.com/a...ible-27139.html
ausjulius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th July 2006, 03:53 PM   #27
ausjulius
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: musorian territory
Posts: 244
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Ausjulius, where have you been all these years?!!!!
You are a treasure of information!
Are these weapons historically accurate? Kazakh sabers appear to have Tibetan motives (pommels, for example). One Turkmen sword (apparently, a museum piece) looks very Chinese.
I looked at the Amazon.com for the Atlas of Central Asian arts, Bishkek, 2002 (apparently multivolume) and could not find it.
Can you get it for me? Just let me know the price of the books and shipment to the US and I shall send you a check or Paypal it right away.
Any way to get my hands on the really old swords/daggers?
You can send me a Private Message.


regarding the chinese looking sword, id say it is actualy chinese or made to sell to chinese,, these poeople were moving around much in the 19th centuary and these items were either radied of the chinese or even sold to them in east turkmenistan the sity of yangasari is a knife city,, there in pre chinese times .. before 1950,, there was many sword makers many of these guys were fighting the japanese and the chinese and the russians and all sorts of internal conflicts and thye had been doing this for the last 1000snds of years,,
so allsorts of items were captured ,, many times when one group was attacked and chaised form there grazing pastures they would flee some distance untill they found another place to graze there animals,, sometimes traveling 100s of kilometers,, or more,
so form east turkmenistan and inner mongolia it was not far to travel to uzbekistan or kazahkstan,, there is many uzbeks in east turkmenistan aswell as kirgiz, mongols, kazakhs and tajiks, and even afew tatars and russians ,,
so id say this was a one of thin , maybe the man who made it had lived in china proper and later when making a sword decided to make it in a chinese style,,


regarding the book , ill have a look for you , but it may not be in english ,,
still normaly you can get them with a small english subtext,,
ausjulius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th July 2006, 08:41 PM   #28
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 3,904
Default

Ya govoryu i chitayu po-russki.
S privetom.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th July 2006, 12:26 PM   #29
ausjulius
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: musorian territory
Posts: 244
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Ya govoryu i chitayu po-russki.
S privetom.

in that case ill look for it in russian text
ausjulius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th July 2006, 02:16 PM   #30
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 3,904
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ausjulius
in that case ill look for it in russian text

Bolshoye spasibo!
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 06:07 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.