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Old 10th January 2014, 06:29 AM   #391
cornelistromp
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found that these Katzbalger has been in the collection of the MET!
donated to higgins armory now sold or perhaps part of the weapons acquired by Worcester Art Museum, who can tell?

See the pictures from the metropolitan museum, here the blade looks still beautiful ?
looks like someone has cleaned it too much with the wrong tools for the job and thus destroying evidence and patina.

Indeed, The MET also dates the Katzbalger around 1500.


Details
Accession Number3130
OriginProbably Germany, late 1400s-early 1500s
MaterialsSteel; brass; briar wood
MeasureO.L. 34"; blade L. 28";
blade width at hilt 1 13/16"Weight2 lb. 2 oz

Description

Infantry sword of the so-called Katzbalger type. Double-edged steel blade of hollow ground, flattened octagonal section tapering slightly to bluntly pointed spatulate tip. Ricasso of flattened rectangular section with 3 shallow, wide fullers on each face, becoming pointed & continuing as pair of fullers extending 1/3 of length of rest of blade. These are about 8" in overall length, and pointed at their ends. Pressing toward the tip, the blade becomes flat and lenticular, tapering gently and slightly to the point. One face is marked as noted under "marks". "S"-shaped octagonal section crossguard recurving in plane of blade, with domed, brass capped terminals. Quillon block, terminals of guard, brass caps have deeply incised line decoration. 1-piece briar wood grip of hexagonal section, widening towards pommel. The side faces are accented by cut axial lines at the angles. The grip is insulated at the ends by thin sheets of brass plate. There are no signs of a covering having ever been in place. Steel pommel, hexagonal at base & expanding into flattened mushroom-shape at end which is deeply cut into 3 sections. Where the blade tang passes through the pommel body there is a shallow rectangular cavity that might well have once held a finial both decorative and functional.

Curator's Comments

The swords appear widely in Germanic art of the day, depicted by famous artists such as Hans Baldung, Lukas Cranach and Urs Graf. Tip has been shortened. The cog-like brass mark on the blade is simialr to that which appears on an Italian roncone, of ca. 1510 in the Museo Poldi-Pezzoli (see Boccia and Godoy, p. 149, no. 461; this reference also notes similarly marked halberds given as German and Swiss, in Leningrad, Bern and Rome.) Katzbalger swords appear widely thoughout German art of the first half of the 16th century. Among other sources, see Lukas Cranach's woodcut of a Landsknecht, ca. 1510, at Dresden (Schade, Cranach..). The name is the source of some debate, but it was probably derived from a slang verb (katzbalgen) meaning to tussle ("mix it up"), or fight at close quarters. The open S-shape of the crossguard of our piece suggests an earlier date for the example, perhaps as early as the late 15th century. In its general form and execution it should be compared to that of a dagger given as Swiss (?) from the beginning of the 16th centuiry in the Odescalchi collection, inv. no. 1312. Rather similar hilts are depicted on the Harsdorfer gold and gem scale of 1497 (the footsoldier to the left of the arms as viewed; Gothic and Renaissance Art.., cat. no. 77) and on the St. Sebastian altarpiece by Hans Baldung Grien, 1507 (as worn by the yellow-clad archer in the right foreground of the main panel, ibid., cat. no. 178). The kriegstagesbuch discussed by Dilke and Closs shows rather similar hilts in figs. 5, 8, 9, 12; this work dates from the end of the 15th century, and in 1929 was preserved in the Thuringian State Archives, Weimar.

Bibliography

Claude Blair and Leonid Tarassuk (eds.), The Complete Encyclopedia of Arms and Weapons (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1982), p. 294.
Lionello G. Boccia and Jose-A. Godoy, Museo Poldi Pezzoli, Armeria I (Milan: Bramante Editrice, 1985), p. 149, no. 461.
Nolfi di Carpegna, Le Armi Odescalchi (Rome: DeLuca Editore, 1976), p. 37, cat. no. 210.
Guy F. Laking, A Record of European Armour and Arms.., vol. II (London: G. Bell and Sons. Ltd., 1920), p. 299, fig. 679.
Donald J. LaRocca, "The Renaissance Spirit," in Swords and Hilt Weapons (New York: Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1989), p. 47.
A.V.B. Norman and C.M. Barne, The Rapier and Small-sword, 1460-1820 (London: Arms and Armour Press, 1980), p. 66, hilt 3.
Werner Schade, Cranach: A Family of master Painters. Transl. Helen Sebba (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1980).
Heribert Seitz, Blankwaffen I (Munich: Klinkhardt und Biermann, 1965), pp. 134, fig. 76, no. 28; fig. 77, no. 34; 135, fig. 77, no. 40; 173; 175, fig. 111.
The Metropolitan Museum of Art, Gothic and Renaissance Art in Nuremberg, 1300-1550 (New York: The Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1986), cat. Nos. 77, 178.
Helene Dilke and Adolf Closs, "Das Kriegstagesbuch eines deutschen Landsknechts und die Wende des 15. Jahrhunderts," ZHWK, n.F. 3(12) (January 1929): 1-11.

Publication & Exhibit History

Photographed while in collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, neg. no. 26624
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Last edited by cornelistromp : 10th January 2014 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 10th January 2014, 06:46 AM   #392
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Hello,

a similar hilted sword like in Michael's post (single edged Swiss hand and half sword) was sold in the last Fischer auction (417, lot no. 25).

Regards,
Matus
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Old 10th January 2014, 10:13 AM   #393
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Thank you so much, Jasper,


I should have also noticed that the pommel cap is of. ca. 1500, as with a Grosses Messer.
That sign on the blade I would not have read for a Gothic numeral 4.

Thank you as well, Matus, for that Fischer item.


Best,
Michael
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Old 10th January 2014, 11:49 AM   #394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
... donated to higgins armory now sold or perhaps part of the weapons acquired by Worcester Art Museum, who can tell? ...

Still highlighted by the Higgins (during my visit) on September 2012 ... before this museum tragic end .

.
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Last edited by fernando : 10th January 2014 at 12:01 PM. Reason: text addition
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Old 10th January 2014, 12:15 PM   #395
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Thanks for that reminder, 'Nando!


I knew that part of the Higgins was sold at auction with Tom del Mar but I do not know what had happened. Did they go bankrupt?


Best,
Michl
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Old 10th January 2014, 12:18 PM   #396
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Old 10th January 2014, 01:14 PM   #397
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Yeah,

That whole year 2013 I spent on hospitalization including 23 surgeries of they heaviest kind. No computer access from October 2012 till mid-November 2013 - of course I missed a lot of information, auctions - and, most of all, I missed the forum!

Best,
Michael
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Old 10th January 2014, 01:21 PM   #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
... and, most of all, I missed the forum! ...

We will put it back ... no worry
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Old 11th January 2014, 07:21 AM   #399
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God knows you forumites have already done so - thank you so much, 'Nando!

Best,
Michl
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Old 11th January 2014, 01:33 PM   #400
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I would like to add this Late-Gothic, 2nd half 15th c. hand-and-a-half sword to this thread as it was still in use as a period companion together with the earliest Katzbalgers.
It was sold Bonhams, 26 November 2008, lot 274.

Best, Michael
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Old 11th January 2014, 03:59 PM   #401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Thank you so much, Jasper,


I should have also noticed that the pommel cap is of. ca. 1500, as with a Grosses Messer.
That sign on the blade I would not have read for a Gothic numeral 4.

Thank you as well, Matus, for that Fischer item.


Best,
Michael


yes, I mentioned it in post 388 as a NON-GOTHIC 4

best,
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Old 11th January 2014, 04:20 PM   #402
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I knew you did but alas I am unable to look at that mark as any shape of the cypher 4, whether Gothic or non-Gothic.

That however seems to be a problem of personal identification on my side.


Best,
m
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Old 11th January 2014, 05:40 PM   #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
I knew you did but alas I am unable to look at that mark as any shape of the cypher 4, whether Gothic or non-Gothic.

That however seems to be a problem of personal identification on my side.


Best,
m


maybe this close up picture helps.

best,
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Old 11th January 2014, 07:35 PM   #404
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That did help indeed, thank you.


I would not call that a classic non-Gothic numeral 4 though.

Most medievalists will agree that the Gothic numeral 4 in its 'typical' version is often misread as the upper half of the cypher 8, which actually is not true. In fact, '4' has only been turned to the right by 90 degrees since the 15th century and turned back to its present position again in the course of the first half of the 16th century.

If you look at it that way, the 'position' of the numeral 4 on the blade of that Katzbalger may well be alright, just not not quite what one would expect 'characteristically' and 'ideally'.

In order to illustrate how much the position of numeral 4 could vary - until the 'modern' version! - during the whole 15th c., I attached the following samples:


1407 (founding table of the Church of the Holy Spirit, Landshut, Bavaria), very unusual!

1436 (hatchment, Swiss National Museum Zurich)

1443 (bone of a mammoth, an inexplicable curiosity in the Gothic period)

1460 (mirrored version of numeral 4, on the crossbow of Ulrich of Württemberg, Metropolitan Museum of Art, N.Y.), unusually mirrored!

1478 (source unknown)

1481 (Old City Hall, Regensburg, Bavaria)

1481 (wrought-iron hackbut barrel, Munich; in my collection, and two nearly identical samples in Oberhaus Castle, Passau, Lower Bavaria):
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...t=haquebut+1481

1481 (painting by Michael Wohlgemut), unusually modern!

1499 (Albrecht Dürer, Nuremberg, whose style was extremely 'advanced' in his time, on his portrait of Oswolt Krell)!



As you will see, no absolutely strict rules can be set up for a certain representation.



Best,
m
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Old 11th January 2014, 08:02 PM   #405
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1474 (ratched of a cranequin, Probus sale, Stockholm 8 Nov 2010)

1488 (church in Haimhausen, near Munich, Bavaria)

1499 (painting by Michael Wohlgemut, at the threshold to the Early Modern Age)

1499 (model of a fire engine, Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nürnberg)

1493 (epitaph plate, former Figdor colln., Vienna)

1493 (another, from the same source)

1497 (Nuremberg)

1504 (Nuremberg bronze cannon barrel, town museum in Weismain, Bavaria)

1514 (Bülach, Switzerland), old style!

1514 (painting by Lucas Cranach, Dresden), modern style!

1547 (Salzburg, Austria)

1548 (bone plaque on a wheelock arquebus, Tojhusmuseet Copenhagen)

1548 (same gun)

1554 (blade of a Flamberg two-handed sword, town hall museum Stein am Rhein, Switzerland), Gothic style!!!



Once again, a great bandwidth of varieties is documented, and almost any style of representation may have been possible!
In traditional and far-off countries like Switzerland, the obsolete Gothic style prevailed even in the Renaissance epoque until at least the mid-16th c.!



m
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Old 11th January 2014, 08:27 PM   #406
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Michael,

thank you this is very enlightening for me and extremely interesting, I Always saw the four a a half 8, actually now I see it is not.

If you rotate the Gothic 4 by 90 degrees you will indeed get the later 4.
Also very nice that you found and posted examples of these rotated 4 at the end of the 15th and begining of the 16thC century's.


best,
Jasper
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Old 11th January 2014, 08:36 PM   #407
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Hi Jasper,


Not to forget, at the beginning of the 15th c. this sort of writing style of 4 can be found as well: 1407!!!

Also, note the representation of the first numeral 1 as m, based on the Latin word mille, in the obsolete Romanesque/High Gothic style, denoting the mixture of writings at the threshold to the 'modern' Late-Gothic period of the early 15th century!


Best,
Michael

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Old 11th January 2014, 10:08 PM   #408
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Wow, folks,


I just noticed that this thread had 60.035 views !!! as of today, 11 January 2014, midnight!
I have turned 61 today, and this doubtlessly is my greatest birthday present.

You've made it possible, thank you so much for trusting me, and for contributing that diligently, with 407 replies!


Good night to all of you, wherever you are,
and best,
Michael
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Old 12th January 2014, 08:46 AM   #409
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a very happy birthday Michael,

indeed a beautiful birthday gift, congratulations on your 61th and many more years full of weapons inspiration, up to the 100.000 with this thread.

very best wishes from holland,
Jasper

small present: battle between landsknechts
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Old 12th January 2014, 11:41 AM   #410
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Oh my God, Jasper,


I'm so baffled that I don't know what to say, so I just say 'thanks a million' for that brilliant idea and the thoughtful gift etching of the Landsknechts!


Best wishes as ever,
Michael
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Old 12th January 2014, 12:02 PM   #411
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Ah ... you Bavarian villain
I tought your aniversary was confidential
Well, here it goes with my wishes for the one zillion views.

PARABENS P'RA VOCÊ,
NESTA DATA QUERIDA,
MUITAS FELICIDADES
MUITOS ANOS DE VIDA



Relax, no bad thoughts; this is only the Portuguese version of Happy Birthday to you

Last edited by fernando : 12th January 2014 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 12th January 2014, 12:59 PM   #412
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... and all the best for the new year to come in my life - I understand sufficient of any Roman language to be able and get the sense when I see it written down!

Muito obrigado, amigo meu 'Nando!

Actually I was determined to keep my birthday secret because I never celebrate but then I got sort of carried away by those multiple views of my thread ...


m
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Old 13th January 2014, 01:36 PM   #413
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Default Variations of Gothic Numerals

In addition to the instances posted in ##404 and 405, I would like to point out some more samples to illustrate the enormous bandwith of the spectrum of representing a certain Gothic cypher/numeral.

I also attached an illustration of an executioner's saw dated 1594, with cypher 4 still represented in the Gothic tradition,though done at the end of the 16th century!
The saw was at auction at Hermann Historica's, Munich, in October 2008.

Have fun!


Best,
Michael
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Old 16th July 2014, 04:37 PM   #414
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Dear All,

and Michael, Jim, Jasper, Fernando and all other enthusiast here...

After reading on this forum I am truly amazed how much knowledge there is to be found here and it is for free !

I've been collecting for more than 35 years and it is a delight to be able to gain information here.

Now about the katsbalgers, for some reason they were always verry popular in Holland, however I never bought or traded one simply becauese in my opinion I never got an original in my hands and now I understand why... mayby someday

Kind regards

Ulfberth
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Old 11th August 2014, 04:17 PM   #415
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I love this "thread"! So much information, that I must re-read it, and I appreciate all the beautiful pictures. Thank you ALL for the fantastic forum.
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Old 29th November 2014, 12:17 PM   #416
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Default The Finest and Most Important Katzbalger for Sale - EVER!

Hi there,


Today, I must ask for understanding, for not posting here for such a long time.

In addition to computer problems that have not been solved yet (my machine will be off
for a week for a general check), my fingers are getting paralyzed more and more every day; the diagnosis might beAmyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), the motor neuron disease that Stephen Hawking has. Even eating with a knife and fork has gotten very hard - and so has typing.

Nevertheless, here I present the finest preserved and most important Katzbalger to have been for sale ever. It is closely related to the famous specimen made for Ulrich von Schellenberg (now in the Vienna Armory, the Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien, and fetched a fantastic price with Bonhams on 26 November 2014.
You will remember Ulrich von Schellenberg's Katzbalger from my earlier posts in this thread, and find further images down here.

Like that museum sample, the one in discussion also retained its original tooled sheath/scabbard together with a bodkin (the original by-knife missing).
Please note that the chape of the sheath is a 17th century replacement.
The pommel of the bodkin is made en suite to match that of the sword. A bodkin served at least two purposes: picking up food at a meal, and working as an awl or prick; for the latter task, it is pierced to receive a thread for sewing, allowing the Landsknecht to repair his clothes.
As I have often pointed out, the early Renaissance period was, among others, characterized by a great variety of combinations of weapons and tools.


Best as ever,
Michael
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Old 29th November 2014, 12:38 PM   #417
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A few more views of the Schellenberg Katzbalger, followed by the Bohmams specimen.

When regarding the two oak wood plates forming the grip please note that originally, they were covered by a cord binding which was hidden beneath tooled leather.

m
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Old 29th November 2014, 12:54 PM   #418
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Lots of detailed close-up studies.
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Old 29th November 2014, 01:03 PM   #419
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The latten-inlaid bladesmith's mark, the tooled sheath and the bodkin also serving as an awl.

Please note the leather tooling at the bottom finial of the compartment for the by-knife and bodkin, ending in a wavy decorative element wrought in high relief and merging into the stitches of the seam.
That characteristic serpent- or flame-like Early Renaissance ornament is found on various types of weapons and their accouterments:

http://www.vikingsword.com
/vb/showthread.php?t=8185&highlight=serpent+Early+Renaissance
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...rly+Renaissance
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...rly+Renaissance









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Old 29th November 2014, 01:33 PM   #420
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In the top attachment, the stitched seam is seen passing over into a trefoil ornament representing the utmost stytilzation of a bunch of grapes.
For more on the characteristic Early Renaissance decorative element, please see
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...il+bunch+grapes
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...il+bunch+grapes
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...il+bunch+grapes


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