Dredging This Up Exotic Flintlock

Rick · 9th January 2009, 09:34 PM

Any ideas from the gun lobby ??

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002066.html

M ELEY · 10th January 2009, 04:36 AM

Hi Rick,
Not an expert gun lobbyist

, but having read the old comments on this piece, I truly feel that it is NOT a copy. I have a VERY similar piece in styling (but not the markings or length, of course)that was percussion and came from an old collection, ca. 1850. I would agree with the forumites who suggested India just based on some clues. #1 The designs do distinctly look more Indian than Islamic. Most of the Persian types had more elaborate and distinctly decorative butt caps than your model. #2. The length! Very impressive and reminds me of at least two other examples I've seen in auction catalogs listed as Indian sub-continent. Sorry, I no longer have the exact references. Because of the relatively late usage of earlier-style firearms in this region of the world, despite it being flint lock, I suspect it to be more mid-19th century judging from the wear/patina, but this is just my two-cents. On to the real experts...

Anandalal N. · 10th January 2009, 04:46 AM

I would ask you to consider a couple of aspects. Firstly, the basic elements of the pistol seems to be well fashioned. The wood, the brass trigger guard and butt tang, and the lock seem to belong together. The ornamentation on the barrel and the lock are at stark contrast therewith. So consider the possibility that the ornamentation of the barrel and lock could have been introduced subsequently. Overall the gun to me seems of European manufacture and design whilst the ornamentation on the barrel and the lock could be Indian. Could you post a photograph of the tang button of the butt tang. Pl. note that I have not included the barrel in the list of original components. I am uncertain about the barrel and feel that there is a posibility that it was introduced too. The damamge in the wood would be consistent with that. The barrel is rounded thorughout and the barrel tang also is not consistent with European design in my opinion. If you are looking at the ornamentation elements I would look at the barrel and lock seperately and the elements on the wood, and the brass seperately. The lock itself which is one of the critical elements in a firearm seems to be of European manufacture. As for age I would go for the 19th century.

ward · 10th January 2009, 06:29 AM

Have seen Balkan guns like this with similar chiseled human figures on the barrel. Can you post closeups? Costumes they are wearing should tell more about origin but it looks from your pics like Balkans, also overall form is Ottoman Empire not Indian. Definitely right though, not a copy.
I didn't see anything like this when I was in Tunisia last year but arms migrated quite a bit along with the men that used them and a lot of mercenaries from Bosnia and Albania served in N. Africa. Again I'd like to see better pics but looks 18th or early 19th c to me. Nice old soldier

kahnjar1 · 10th January 2009, 07:10 AM

Very rust(ic)

Seriously though, I agree it does not look Indian to me either. More Balkan area. Could be European---Belgian?? made for the eastern market. Any marks under the barrel?
Regards Stuart

Pukka Bundook · 10th January 2009, 03:11 PM

I'd go with Balkan or Turkish/Moorish.

If it was European, the style would dictate it was made early to mid 18th Century, but in Turkey and such, this style was made well into the 19th century.
There is nothing wrong with the round barrel and square tang that would say it Isn't European, and the straighted frizzen was quite often used on European arms, yet the overall look and certainly the heavy decoration says Balkan or Turkish to me.
I think the decoration could have been added later, as it's not up to par with the overall looks of the piece.
A good example of ; "now, if it could only talk!"

R.

Rick · 10th January 2009, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ward

Have seen Balkan guns like this with similar chiseled human figures on the barrel. Can you post closeups? Costumes they are wearing should tell more about origin but it looks from your pics like Balkans, also overall form is Ottoman Empire not Indian. Definitely right though, not a copy.
I didn't see anything like this when I was in Tunisia last year but arms migrated quite a bit along with the men that used them and a lot of mercenaries from Bosnia and Albania served in N. Africa. Again I'd like to see better pics but looks 18th or early 19th c to me. Nice old soldier

Closeups Ward .

Thanks !

Rick · 10th January 2009, 08:12 PM

Faces are everywhere; all the spaces between the figures have animals and monsters carved in .

ward · 11th January 2009, 02:03 AM

The bearded face on the breech and the frizzen are what I was looking for,
definitely Balkans. They carved that same face on dagger handles and other things, looks almost like a Viking motif. Who knows, it could be. They were around there at one time.
The clothing the figures are wearing isnt Indian either, could probably identify it by browsing some ethnic dress websites. Early 19th century is probably about right.

Rick · 11th January 2009, 02:56 AM

Thanks Ward, Richard et al .

Anandalal N. · 11th January 2009, 04:09 AM

Just one question. Does the bearded face close to the breech end have a 'third eye' and the one on the frizzen too or is it some other symbolism?

ward · 11th January 2009, 05:05 AM

I think its pretty clear the one on the breech is wearing a helmet.
One on the frizzen, its harder to tell. But a third eye?
Dont see it sorry

Anandalal N. · 11th January 2009, 06:25 AM

Hi.

Helmet. Hmmmm. OK. I thought that was hair above with a lock falling on the forehead. I could be wrong. Just expressing my opinion.

ward · 11th January 2009, 09:44 PM

The figure on the upper cock jaw and the big one on the barrel look to be wearing helmets too, with a lot of feathers? At first glance they look Indian but I've seen a couple of these pistols and a long guns It was a rasak and had the same Euro type flintlock and barrel with those figures.

Rick · 11th January 2009, 10:26 PM

Hi Ward, Rasak as in ?
http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/exp...cfm?ID=AAA2546

ward · 11th January 2009, 11:10 PM

Yes. They are supposed to be from Albania but probably came more from the general area. i've seen some with Greek names on them too.

Pukka Bundook · 12th January 2009, 02:46 PM

The sword worn by one of the figures appears to have the ottoman/Persian shamshir grip as well.

The face on the top of the barrel at the breech resembles the old German Bellarmine jugs from 16th century....but I'll still go with Turkish/ottoman /Balkan. these were all at one time part of the same empire anyway, so it isn't like I can't make up my mind!!

Richard.

10th January 2009, 04:46 AM	#3
Anandalal N. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 84	Dear Rick, I would ask you to consider a couple of aspects. Firstly, the basic elements of the pistol seems to be well fashioned. The wood, the brass trigger guard and butt tang, and the lock seem to belong together. The ornamentation on the barrel and the lock are at stark contrast therewith. So consider the possibility that the ornamentation of the barrel and lock could have been introduced subsequently. Overall the gun to me seems of European manufacture and design whilst the ornamentation on the barrel and the lock could be Indian. Could you post a photograph of the tang button of the butt tang. Pl. note that I have not included the barrel in the list of original components. I am uncertain about the barrel and feel that there is a posibility that it was introduced too. The damamge in the wood would be consistent with that. The barrel is rounded thorughout and the barrel tang also is not consistent with European design in my opinion. If you are looking at the ornamentation elements I would look at the barrel and lock seperately and the elements on the wood, and the brass seperately. The lock itself which is one of the critical elements in a firearm seems to be of European manufacture. As for age I would go for the 19th century.

10th January 2009, 08:12 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	One Last Image Faces are everywhere; all the spaces between the figures have animals and monsters carved in . Attached Images

11th January 2009, 05:05 AM	#12
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I think its pretty clear the one on the breech is wearing a helmet. One on the frizzen, its harder to tell. But a third eye? Dont see it sorry Last edited by ward; 11th January 2009 at 06:10 AM.

11th January 2009, 10:26 PM	#15
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Rasak Hi Ward, Rasak as in ? http://www.nmm.ac.uk/collections/exp...cfm?ID=AAA2546

9th January 2009, 09:34 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Dredging This Up Exotic Flintlock Any ideas from the gun lobby ?? http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002066.html

10th January 2009, 04:36 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,066	Hi Rick, Not an expert gun lobbyist , but having read the old comments on this piece, I truly feel that it is NOT a copy. I have a VERY similar piece in styling (but not the markings or length, of course)that was percussion and came from an old collection, ca. 1850. I would agree with the forumites who suggested India just based on some clues. #1 The designs do distinctly look more Indian than Islamic. Most of the Persian types had more elaborate and distinctly decorative butt caps than your model. #2. The length! Very impressive and reminds me of at least two other examples I've seen in auction catalogs listed as Indian sub-continent. Sorry, I no longer have the exact references. Because of the relatively late usage of earlier-style firearms in this region of the world, despite it being flint lock, I suspect it to be more mid-19th century judging from the wear/patina, but this is just my two-cents. On to the real experts...

10th January 2009, 06:29 AM	#4
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Have seen Balkan guns like this with similar chiseled human figures on the barrel. Can you post closeups? Costumes they are wearing should tell more about origin but it looks from your pics like Balkans, also overall form is Ottoman Empire not Indian. Definitely right though, not a copy. I didn't see anything like this when I was in Tunisia last year but arms migrated quite a bit along with the men that used them and a lot of mercenaries from Bosnia and Albania served in N. Africa. Again I'd like to see better pics but looks 18th or early 19th c to me. Nice old soldier

10th January 2009, 07:10 AM	#5
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,729	Very rust(ic) Seriously though, I agree it does not look Indian to me either. More Balkan area. Could be European---Belgian?? made for the eastern market. Any marks under the barrel? Regards Stuart

10th January 2009, 03:11 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	I'd go with Balkan or Turkish/Moorish. If it was European, the style would dictate it was made early to mid 18th Century, but in Turkey and such, this style was made well into the 19th century. There is nothing wrong with the round barrel and square tang that would say it Isn't European, and the straighted frizzen was quite often used on European arms, yet the overall look and certainly the heavy decoration says Balkan or Turkish to me. I think the decoration could have been added later, as it's not up to par with the overall looks of the piece. A good example of ; "now, if it could only talk!" R.

11th January 2009, 02:03 AM	#9
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	The bearded face on the breech and the frizzen are what I was looking for, definitely Balkans. They carved that same face on dagger handles and other things, looks almost like a Viking motif. Who knows, it could be. They were around there at one time. The clothing the figures are wearing isnt Indian either, could probably identify it by browsing some ethnic dress websites. Early 19th century is probably about right.

11th January 2009, 02:56 AM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Thanks Ward, Richard et al .

11th January 2009, 04:09 AM	#11
Anandalal N. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 84	Just one question. Does the bearded face close to the breech end have a 'third eye' and the one on the frizzen too or is it some other symbolism?

11th January 2009, 06:25 AM	#13
Anandalal N. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 84	Hi. Helmet. Hmmmm. OK. I thought that was hair above with a lock falling on the forehead. I could be wrong. Just expressing my opinion.

11th January 2009, 09:44 PM	#14
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	The figure on the upper cock jaw and the big one on the barrel look to be wearing helmets too, with a lot of feathers? At first glance they look Indian but I've seen a couple of these pistols and a long guns It was a rasak and had the same Euro type flintlock and barrel with those figures.

11th January 2009, 11:10 PM	#16
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Yes. They are supposed to be from Albania but probably came more from the general area. i've seen some with Greek names on them too.

12th January 2009, 02:46 PM	#17
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	The sword worn by one of the figures appears to have the ottoman/Persian shamshir grip as well. The face on the top of the barrel at the breech resembles the old German Bellarmine jugs from 16th century....but I'll still go with Turkish/ottoman /Balkan. these were all at one time part of the same empire anyway, so it isn't like I can't make up my mind!! Richard.