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Old 30th September 2008, 12:11 AM   #1
chevalier
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Default spanish colonial lances

lances where used in new mexico as a mans primary weapon in new mexico right up through the early-mid 1800s as the settlers had relatively few firearms until the mid 1800s. i was wondering if anyone had seen examples of these weapons? in charles kenner's "the comanchero frontier" he writes about the new mexicans making tomahawks and lances "of unrivaled grace" and trading them to the comanches and other southern plains indians..
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Old 30th September 2008, 06:20 AM   #2
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"...the lance was the favorite weapon of the Presidial soldiers in the northerm frontiers of New Spain. The use of the lance was so thoroughly engrained into the population of this region that even as late as the Mexican War the lancers were some of the most effective troops in the service of Mexico".
("Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700-1821",
S. Brinckerhoff and Pierce Chamberlain, 1972, p.108)
This is well illustrated in particular in the case of the Battle of San Pascual, August 18,1846, at a location nortn of San Diego, California (an excellent work on this is "Lances at San Pascual", Arthur Woodward, 1948).
A contingent of insurgent 'Californios' led by Don Andres Pico, clashed with U.S. First Dragoons, and the effect of the deadly lancers is described, "...almost every dragoon in the forward party suffered from the point of the willow lances".

I recall research a number of years ago with an official of an Arizona museum who was trying to locate information of lances that were apparantly made for a unit of Californio lancers who were to join Confederate forces in Arizona during the Civil War. I cannot locate notes on this at the moment, but the object was to illustrate that the lance remained a viable weapon that late.

Returning to Spanish colonial lances of the 18th century, Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain note that most extant lance blades found in the southwest appear to be products of local smiths, and the variety in shapes and sizes is almost endless (op.cit. p.108). Many were of socketed form, while many had the tang driven into the shaft.
It should be noted that in these frontier regions, even in Santa Fe, there was typically a regimental armourer/blacksmith who had a number of ironworkers and tried to keep weapons servicable, as well as meet local demands. All manner of surplus and scrap iron was used in fashioning utility items as well as lance heads among knife blades etc. It seems most of the varying forms of these items, though sturdy and workmanlike, I dont think reach the rather exalted description noted in the book cited. Personally, I think they have a rugged charm to them, as Spanish Colonial weapons have always been a fascination to me.
Many local Indian tribesmen were trained in metalwork, and according to Marc Simmons and Frank Turley ("Southwestern Colonial Ironwork", 1980, p.31) they even produced long iron tipped lances for trade with Pueblo tribes.

Though the lance remained a regulation weapon with Presidial troops, there was little uniformity in the examples used, and not all lances were confined to military use (Simmons & Turley, p.177). For the plains, the 'cibolero' or lance for buffalo hunting had a wide blade and wide tang with holes punched in tang or rags cut in edges to secure the head.

Since the Comanches seem to have entered New Mexico mostly in the Northeastern regions, apparantly in thier quest for horses, and finding these as well as other trade with the Spanish, also adopted the lance. In "Native American Weapons" (Colin F. Taylor, 2001,p.10) there is a illustration of a George Catlin painting of a Comanche warrior, His-oo-San-Ches (Little Spaniard), holding a lance with his shield and bow and arrows. It is noted that the southern plains tribes made extensive use of the lance due to contact with Spanish-Mexican soldiers, most of whom were highly skilled lancers (p.62), and that "...only a brave man carried such a weapon as it meant hand to hand combat". Interestly it is also noted on p.122 that a favorite point for lance heads was a sword blade, procured in great numbers from Mexicans, and according to Comanche informants some could be up to 30 inches long.

Could the graceful lance heads have actually been sword blades?


As for the expertise of the Spanish Colonials with the lance, according to Simmons and Turley (p.177) ; "...owing to the scarcity of firearms and a perennial shortage of lead and gunpowder, the lance remained an important weapon in the Spanish Colonies long after it had fallen into disuse elsewhere".

For the quality, it is noted that "...there is no doubt that many ordinary lance points were forged by local smiths, while those of superior workmanship in most cases were imported from the south". This would presume workshops far south of the Santa Fe center in New Mexico, probably as far as Mexico City itself.

I hope someone out there might have some examples of Spanish colonial lances or lanceheads to post. I have as noted, seen them over the years in museums and collections and most seemed quite simple. I have not seen the tomahawks mentioned though, and would like to see more on these.

All best regards,
Jim

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Old 30th September 2008, 07:01 AM   #3
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Found the Civil War info:
Apparantly it was not for the Confederate forces, but the Union, and
the unit was the 'First Battalion of Native California Cavalry', California Volunteers.
Ironically, the first choice to command the unit was to be none other than Don Andres Pico, who had led the Californios at the Battle of San Pascual.
He was unfortunately of ill health and unable to take the command.

These were Mexican/Californio vaqueros recruited in Los Angeles area, and mustered in 1863-64, and though intended to serve in Texas, they were assigned to locations in California, with some going to the Arizona/Sonora frontier. The troopers equipment was a Colt Army revolver, sabre, and a lance manufactured at the Benicia Arsenal (near San Francisco) which had a red pennon.
* I believe the red pennon may have had traditional associations to the 'deguello' or 'no quarter' familiarized in the Battle of the Alamo.

That was what the research was, trying to find one of these 'Benicia' lances. I didn't find one, but am not sure if he did or not.

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Old 30th September 2008, 01:25 PM   #4
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ive reread the passage in "the comanchero frontier" dealing with the lances and it refers to the new mexican lances and tomahawks being "lighter and more graceful" than the british or american trade weapons of the day.
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Old 30th September 2008, 01:31 PM   #5
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on another point, i find it extremely interesting that the comanches where able during the period between 1800 - 1860 to raid as far south as guatemala and honduras and made almost regular forays as deep into mexico as san luis potosi and tampico.
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Old 30th September 2008, 09:26 PM   #6
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Thank you Chevalier for the extra detail on the wording in the book, which makes a great deal of sense. It seems that the British and American weapons were probably relatively heavier, especially in the polearms, as I have not seen the Spanish 'tomahawks' to guage. The British polearms were typically spontoons and some halberds I believe, which of course would not have been traded, and I dont believe either British or Americans used lances here in those times.

As has been discussed, the Spanish Colonial use of the lance was in many if not most cases a primary weapon, rather than a secondary or ancillary weapon. Its manner of use was probably much in the way used by the American Indians of southern plains, as a shorter spear or stabbing weapon. I would imagine the shafts of the Spanish lances must have been shorter than the typical lances of Europe, which were around 8 feet long or so. These were tremendously awkward in the melee, and used as a primary weapon in shock action, with movement to secondary weapons after contact. The Spaniards kept stabbing with them, in one instance narrating the Battle of San Pascual, it notes that one American dragoon was stabbed sixteen times by lance before falling.

In the Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain reference, there is no mention of tomahawks among the weapons described, which of course does not mean they did not exist in these Spanish Colonial regions, but it seems as comprehensive as the book is that they should be mentioned if of any significance. There are of course halberds and spontoons shown, and Taylor (op.cit.) notes that early 'tomahawks' were often comprised of heads of these weapons among tribes in Iroquois regions as the familiar pipe tomahawk developed. I found no specific mention of tomahawks in the Simmons and Turley reference, though one spontoon is shown and the head is more like a very large lance head, ornate, and probably from regions to the south.

You're right on the Comanches, it is truly amazing what amazing distances they travelled in thier raiding. The intensity of thier raids for horses seems to be often the key subject on them in regions all over Texas, which in my own travels across the state has come up many times. One small city has its town square and virtually the entire town history focused on a monumental Comanche horse raid there in about the 1870's if I recall.

Thank you bringing up this topic....you always bring in good ones!!!
It was great revisiting old notes and remembering how fascinating the weapons of New Spain really were!!!
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Old 8th October 2008, 11:05 AM   #7
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The lance and the spontoon were typical weapons and tool in the colonial and post-colonial periods in Mexico. The lance was a weapon used mainly, but not exclusively, by the cavalry since the conquest. Lancers charges were common from the troops from Cortéz. Latter, the lance was used, not only by the presidio troops, but also by the cowboys to manage the catttle. There were cavalry lancers along all the 19th Century in Mexico, including California, Arizona, Texas and New México. Those lances were long poled weapons, not as the indian ones, and not to be used as the indian´s, or thrown. As Jim says, the lance was the primary wepon of the cavalry, and not the sword, the sabre or the machete. I think the lance was much more common in México than is the USA, but I can be mistaken. We have many examples on the museums.

Tomahawks I only have seen them in the most "european" style, the hatchet used by the colonizers, not the classical "indian" used by the USA indians. The comanches never went more to the south than the north side of the State of San Luis Potosí, not even to central México. I find greatly inacurate that statement. But they were already in all the northeast Mexico, as the apache in the central north and also in the northeast, mainly the mezcaleros.
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Old 9th October 2008, 03:56 AM   #8
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Its good to hear from you Gonzalo, and I have been compelled to look more into resources dealing with the lance in the Americas. It is as I have noted, a fascinating topic, and I discovered a bit more on them.

I am inclined to agree, that movements or raids of the Comanches that far into Latin America seems somewhat questionable. There was of course trade between many American Indian tribes well into Mexico, but it would seem more a case of interface between tribal groups at the perimeters of thier territories. In degree this is the exception with Comanches, who do not seem to have had specifically defined territories, but I would need more support to show them as far as Central America.

I agree that the nature of the lances used did have variation, and seem to have become longer in time from the earliest record of them in the Americas.
I found some material in "Leather Jacket Soldiers: The Cuera Cavalry of the American Southwest" by Rene Chartrand. "Military Illustrated" Part I, #53, October,1992 and Part II, #54, Nov.1992.

From this and other sources, I have found the following, so hope it will be of interest to everyone in the history of the lance in the America's.

"...the Presidial soldier had thier lances and shield from the 16th to the middle of the 19th centuries". (p.36).

During inspection of Spanish troopers at El Paso in October, 1684, it is noted that lances "...were not counted, but it was obvious they had them".
A traveller in 1697 mentions that these soldiers were armed with a shield , musket and a 'half pike'. (ibid.)
The inspection of the first Cuera soldiers by Juan de Onate in 1597, in New Mexico shows a lance with a triple blade head termed a 'runka'. (op.cit.p.25)

Through the 18th century, Michael Hardwicke ("Soldados de Cuera") describes the cavalry lances components : the iron head (moharra) seems to have determined various classes of this weapon; some heads of olive leaf shape (hoja de olivo), some diamond shape (punta de diamente) and some that adopted a cross bar (cruceta) just under the head. These were termed a 'reins cutter' (corta riendas), but the bars ended up being removed when the purpose proved impractical.

In 1807, then Lt. Zebulon of U.S. 1st Cavalry encountered Presidial cavalry and noted, "...the appearance of the Spanish troops is certainly a la militaire; thier lances are fixed to the side of thier saddle under the left thigh and slant about five feet above the horse". It is suggested these lances probably had the 'cruceta' bars on them in the accompanying illustration.

Surprisingly, there were native irregular cavalry in Colombia in the war between Simon Bolivar and the Spanish, and on the Plain of Apure, these forces "...showed remarkable skill in the use of a long light lance" and became the dread and terror of the Spanish troops.
("Travels Through the Interior of Colombia", Col. John H.Potter, London, 1827,p.168).

In 1828, Mexican dragoons carried the long lance with red, white and green pennons. Later, as earlier noted, the Californios distinguished themselves at the famed Battle of San Pascual in California in 1846 ("Lances at San Pascual", Arthur Woodward, 1948) and in the Garra Uprising in 1851, lances were made in Los Angeles to equip lanceros.
By the time of the Civil War, units of Mexican lancers were established for the Union Army, but remained in Arizona regions.

The powerful influence of Mexican lancers found its way further east during this time as well, and in 1861, a regiment of lancers was formed in the 6th Pennsylvania Cavalry, known as "Rush's Lancers" and were involved in many campaigns in the war, though the degree the lance was actually used is uncertain. They used a 9 foot long lance with 11" blade based on Austrian pattern, weighing about 8 lbs. with a scarlet pennon (Rush had been active in the Mexican American War, and wonder if the red pennon might have recalled those on the Californio lances ).
( for more see "American Polearms 1526-1865" Rodney Hilton Brown, 1967)

Clearly Mexican forces had profoundly influenced the American forces in the 'Mexican American War' with the proficient use of the lance being one of the notable factors, as units of lancers were formed with Mexicans in the west, and the unit in Pennsylvania.

All best regards,
Jim
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Old 9th October 2008, 08:50 AM   #9
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!Very well stated and based points, Jim! !Excellent! I envy you for the access to all this material. It seems that there are more old archives about Mexico in the USA, than in this country. Many researchers of mexican history have to go to Austin and other places to look for documents of primary sources.

Comanches and apaches could infltrate North Mexico because the existing very low density of population, so they have ample ways to move, atack and retreat, though there were apache mezcalero villages in the State of Coahuila-Texas in which the indians lived peacefully. The Central Mexico was very densely populated. Raiders would be liquidated easily. The conquest was done with the support, among others, of one of the most ferocious indian people, the tlaxcaltecatl, never conquered by the meshica, now known as the aztec (thus, the name of Méshico or México, composed by the words "meshica" and "co", meaning the place of the meshica). Those indians were very efficient in the fight against the comanche and apache raiders.

The military lances I have seen on the mexican museums, tend to be of the heavy type, but I don´t know to which degree this examples are representative of the uses prevalent in the cavalry. Mostly, they are lances and spontoons from the War of Intervention, against frech invaders.
My regards

Gonzalo

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Old 9th October 2008, 05:07 PM   #10
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Hi Gonzalo,
Thank you so much for those very kind words. I work very hard to discover all I can on these things so I can share the information here, and we can all learn from discussing it. I have mostly just computer access to much of the data, but still have notes and material from research done on Spanish Colonial weapons over many years. It has always been one of my favorite subjects as I have always admired the colorful histories of Mexico and Spain, and grew up in Southern California. My passion has always been fueled by the memory of a treasured old espada ancha I owned in my youth.

Presently I am in Arizona, and have travelled in areas deeply endowed with this rich history, and am heading toward New Mexico. One cannot help but imagine the history that seems to be present everywhere, and you can almost see the soldados and vaqueros in the breathtaking scenery, as if in a time machine.

Thank you for the information on the Meshica, and this information I had not been aware of, and it is great learning more on the tribal histories of these groups.

I cannot be sure of the lances variations, but am presuming that the heavy ones were line cavalry examples, where types used by irregular troops or even many frontier soldados were lighter and possibly shorter for close in combat. On the frontier, as in most cases in front line combat forces, need exceeds regulation, and variations of weapons would likely increase. I am always amazed at the ingenuity and industrious creativity of frontier armourers and blacksmiths.

Thank you again Gonzalo!
All best regards,
Jim

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Old 11th October 2008, 04:34 AM   #11
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Thankyouuuu, Jim. I see what do you mean...I have found some sources.
My best regards

Gonzalo
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Old 11th October 2008, 07:26 AM   #12
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i think the kiowas did raid deep into mexico, from the book "lone star: a history of texas and the texans" it reads:

"kiowas pushed war parties many hundreds of miles into hostile territory, harrying both indian and european. one war band raided so far south they brought back descriptions of monkeys and parrots. they had reached either guatemala or the yucatan."
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Old 12th October 2008, 04:09 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pallas
i think the kiowas did raid deep into mexico, from the book "lone star: a history of texas and the texans" it reads:

"kiowas pushed war parties many hundreds of miles into hostile territory, harrying both indian and european. one war band raided so far south they brought back descriptions of monkeys and parrots. they had reached either guatemala or the yucatan."


Thank you Pallas! that is helpful information, and really does support the profound contact between the American Indian tribes and those as far as Mesoamerica. I am presently in northern Arizona, and visited old Sinagua Indian ruins, which date into the 15th century AD. Much of the data that is provided mentions the trade contact of these tribes with the tribes far into Mexico and Mesoamerica .

All very best regards,
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Old 12th October 2008, 05:45 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pallas
i think the kiowas did raid deep into mexico, from the book "lone star: a history of texas and the texans" it reads:

"kiowas pushed war parties many hundreds of miles into hostile territory, harrying both indian and european. one war band raided so far south they brought back descriptions of monkeys and parrots. they had reached either guatemala or the yucatan."


A books says so, but on which grounds? Many false things have been said on books, and many with some interest. There are not records of such raids on the primary sources. When did the kiowas did so? Where the historian get this information? Does he has a valid source?

This not the place to dicuss such sujects, but I find this texan wiritter biased by personal interpretations of the available information, in my opinion. Without proof better than his word, or than his personal interpretation of another´s statements, it can´t be accepted. You should consider that Guatemala is THOUSDANS of miles far from Texas, and that it could not have some sense to make a raid so far, apart from many other material considerations related with their trip and survival. It couldn´t be ECONOMIC, and economy traces limits to human behaviour, as it is the root of survival.

It must be stated that San Luis Potosí, the limit of the indian raids, has indeed a big region with monkeys and parrots (there are parrots even in Coahuila, on the border with Texas). This region is named "La Huasteca". It is, also, hundreds of miles from North Texas. But it is VERY far from Guatemala and still far from Central México. I think there is a confussion, and the author jumped into conclussions. Anyway, he did also make a great job in stuying indian nomadic cultures.
Regards

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Old 13th October 2008, 09:30 PM   #15
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I think Gonzalo makes excellent points. One must consider the literature in which these rather improbable events are presented, and whether or not the author is citing them as fact, or colorful romaticized tales. If the book noted is a history discussing these tribes, then the description of the events should have the source of the data cited. If it is an adventure narrative or travel item then of course, this should be qualified in the wording.

Gonzalo has presented some interesting facts that do offer possibility for the unusual accounts suggesting raids of such long distance, and that the presence of this wildlife need not be from as far as Mesoamerica. I recall reading some very exciting books in researching the famed American 'Bowie Knife', including one titled "The Iron Mistress". This colorful story presents a mixture of fact and a good measure of folklore, and in this type of narrative it becomes difficult to tell where one ends and the other begins. It was however, great material for a movie!
This very phenomenon..folklore...has led to countless misperceptions in the study of not only weapons, but clearly history itself.

Indian folklore is inclusive in their wonderful history, which is considered oral tradition, and in many ways of course includes not only historical and legendary events, but many of profound religious belief. The drawback feom a historical point of view with oral tradition, is that stories tend to gain varying degree of embellishment through time, and deep respect and admiration of forebearers often inadvertantly adds considerable dimension referring to them.
This does not mean that oral tradition in Native American history is untrue or questionable, but recognizes that metaphoric context can often present unique challenges in scholarly perspective. My deep fascination in American Indian history in only exceeded by my profound respect for thier culture.

I think that the Comanches and thier nominal allies, the Kiowa, probably did raid into Mexico to the degree described by Gonzalo, but if any raid by them did reach that much further into Mexico or Mesoamerica, it would most likely have been a singular event. Thier primary purpose in raiding was to obtain horses, and these were readily available wherever the Spanish were, in Texas, New Mexico, and northern Mexico. I cannot imagine why they would travel this great distance to obtain what was available much closer.

Travelling great distances however, was not an all unusual in historical times, as I am discovering more and more, and these tribes did travel more often toward Canada. The evidence of trade items with southwestern tribes from faraway places, including Mesoamerica, were most likely obtained through intertribal contact and networking, rather than singular forays of the entire distance. This is much the same in the history of trade worldwide.

All best regards,
Jim

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Old 20th November 2008, 08:16 PM   #16
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I know this doesn't deal directly with Spanish colonial lances, but as for how far south Kiowa raids went, they definitely went south of San Luis Potosi, although they ususally were to areas farther north. My great, great, great grandfather was captured around San Luis Potosi according to my family's oral traditions. He was the father of the original Aiontay, whose name I carry.

As for the monkeys, the story was written down by Scott Mommaday in his book "Way to Rainy Mountain", but it is also pretty well known among the Kiowas. Basically, a war party decided to go as far south as they could go, and only turned back when they got to an area where they saw little furry men with tails in the trees above them. This was just too strange for them, and they headed back up north.
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Old 21st November 2008, 12:07 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aiontay
I know this doesn't deal directly with Spanish colonial lances, but as for how far south Kiowa raids went, they definitely went south of San Luis Potosi, although they ususally were to areas farther north. My great, great, great grandfather was captured around San Luis Potosi according to my family's oral traditions. He was the father of the original Aiontay, whose name I carry.

As for the monkeys, the story was written down by Scott Mommaday in his book "Way to Rainy Mountain", but it is also pretty well known among the Kiowas. Basically, a war party decided to go as far south as they could go, and only turned back when they got to an area where they saw little furry men with tails in the trees above them. This was just too strange for them, and they headed back up north.



Hello Aiontay, and welcome!!! It is great to see this thread brought up again and especially to see your entry concerning the Kiowa raiding partys into Mexico. I would very much like to hear more, as I am under the impression that you are of Kiowa ancestry, and I find that most fascinating. I have always deeply admired the Native American history, traditions and heritage, and in travelling cross country have been fortunate to visit many important locations. It is most heartening to see the traditions and heritage of these many nations being preserved and with well earned pride.

Thank you for confirming the distances of these raids with such well qualified information....I really love the story of 'furry little men with tails'!! that truly must have been enough to say..I think we may have gone too far!!

All the very best,
Jim
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Old 21st November 2008, 12:46 AM   #18
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It makes sense, Aiontay. Welcome to the forum. I hope you can enrich this multicultural cauldron.
Regards

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Old 21st November 2008, 01:24 AM   #19
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Thanks for the welcome. Yes, Jim, I'm Kiowa and Chickasaw. The Kiowas certainly covered some distances back in the old days; Zone-tay, the original Aiontay's wife who we descend from, was born on the headwaters of the Arkansas on a return trip from visiting the Crows. Of course, the Spanish also did a bit of travelling themselves.

I should also point out that the Indians, or at least the Kiowas, didn't throw their lances. Also, while tomahawks were popular, they were more prestige items rather than actual weapons. My grandmother talked about the Kiowas using war clubs, but not tomahawks. The Kiowa ledger art I've seen shows spears and sabers used in combat, but no tomahawks.

As for strange creatures, Mooney's collection of Kiowa shield designs shows one shield depicting an elephant! I can't read the written description since the scanned image doesn't show the writing very well, but it is clearly an elephant.

I need to go back and comment on some of the threads regarding Kachin swords (nhtu) as well since I've spent time among the Kachins and actually have one that was given to me by a Kachin friend.
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Old 21st November 2008, 02:33 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aiontay
Thanks for the welcome. Yes, Jim, I'm Kiowa and Chickasaw. The Kiowas certainly covered some distances back in the old days; Zone-tay, the original Aiontay's wife who we descend from, was born on the headwaters of the Arkansas on a return trip from visiting the Crows. Of course, the Spanish also did a bit of travelling themselves.

I should also point out that the Indians, or at least the Kiowas, didn't throw their lances. Also, while tomahawks were popular, they were more prestige items rather than actual weapons. My grandmother talked about the Kiowas using war clubs, but not tomahawks. The Kiowa ledger art I've seen shows spears and sabers used in combat, but no tomahawks.

As for strange creatures, Mooney's collection of Kiowa shield designs shows one shield depicting an elephant! I can't read the written description since the scanned image doesn't show the writing very well, but it is clearly an elephant.

I need to go back and comment on some of the threads regarding Kachin swords (nhtu) as well since I've spent time among the Kachins and actually have one that was given to me by a Kachin friend.




Absolutely fantastic input Aiontay! Thank you for the notes on the lances and tomahawks, and other comments which are excellent in helping us learn more on the American Indian weapons. The note on the shield with the elephant is pretty stunning ! I think it would really be interesting to review some of these surprisingly incongruent elements found on weaponry such as this, and to discuss how these might have arrived in completely unexpected cultures.
Personally I believe that the complexity of trade networking far exceeded commonly held modern comprehension and it seems research and archaeological discoveries continue to reveal evidence suggesting these astounding connections.
In many cases, material culture that may have changed hands at any number of points from its origin to its final location, would be not unsurprisingly nor unexpectedly strange to be found there.

I think Gonzalos earlier note on the presence of monkeys and parrots being found farther north in Mexico is well placed also, as geographic boundaries have little to do with nature, but it is entirely fascinating that the various raiding parties moved so deeply south regardless of what exact region they reached.

I really look forward to your posting on the items on earlier threads, and I'd like very much to hear more on Native American weapons, which is a topic we need to have more coverage on.

Thanks again, and its good to have you posting with us!

All the best,
Jim
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Old 22nd November 2008, 02:48 AM   #21
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Jim, the page is acting up so I wasn't able to find the exact shield, but I believe it is someplace among the images here: http://www.nmnh.si.edu/naa/kiowa/mooney.htm.
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Old 22nd November 2008, 05:27 PM   #22
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Here is the image of the shield: http://sirismm.si.edu/naa/kiowa/08935820.jpg.

The larger collection, which includes a number of depictions of weapons is:
http://www.nmnh.si.edu/naa/kiowa/kiowa.htm
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Old 23rd November 2008, 05:27 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aiontay
Here is the image of the shield: http://sirismm.si.edu/naa/kiowa/08935820.jpg.

The larger collection, which includes a number of depictions of weapons is:
http://www.nmnh.si.edu/naa/kiowa/kiowa.htm


That is outstanding, and yup, its an elephant OK!!!
Would you please send me a PM, yours is not receiving.

All the best,
Jim
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Old 23rd November 2008, 09:59 PM   #24
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Jim, for some reason I can't PM you either.
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Old 25th November 2008, 07:00 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aiontay
Jim, for some reason I can't PM you either.



Im not sure what the problem is Aiontay....Ive been to the Oracle and am waiting to hear more...but you should be able to send me an email off my members profile.
I appreciate your patience,
Jim
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Old 4th December 2008, 03:12 AM   #26
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Here is a picture from the Palace of Governors in Santa Fe. There is a lance in the top right corner. Unfortunately taking pictures is prohibited and thus the quality of the picture is somewhat poor, and there is no close-up.
This is too bad, because the lance is really pretty - it features a silver inlay with floral design. I am not sure if it was locally made or imported from Spain. The socket is flattened to make it into a tang.
There are some other nice items in this display, including an espada ancha (with active rust in the fullers ) and a buffalo hide shield, called "adarga".
Best regards,
Teodor
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Old 4th December 2008, 03:49 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVV
Here is a picture from the Palace of Governors in Santa Fe. There is a lance in the top right corner. Unfortunately taking pictures is prohibited and thus the quality of the picture is somewhat poor, and there is no close-up.
This is too bad, because the lance is really pretty - it features a silver inlay with floral design. I am not sure if it was locally made or imported from Spain. The socket is flattened to make it into a tang.
There are some other nice items in this display, including an espada ancha (with active rust in the fullers ) and a buffalo hide shield, called "adarga".
Best regards,
Teodor



Excellent photo Teodor! Thank you for posting this, I felt deja vu as I looked at it....I was there in October but didnt get any pictures. Great example of the espada ancha, which I hope we'll be able to discuss here sometime soon.

All the best,
Jim
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Old 20th September 2017, 06:46 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
That is outstanding, and yup, its an elephant OK!!!
Would you please send me a PM, yours is not receiving.

All the best,

Jim


I am very late to this conversation, but I have a theory about the elephant shield. It seems to have images of sharks on it which makes me think of drawings done at Ft Marion. I seem to remember some of the men held there saw a traveling circus. I would imagine it made quite an impression, maybe enough to seek the elephant as a protector spirit on a shield.
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Old 20th September 2017, 11:30 PM   #29
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About 6 or 7 years ago somebody in New Mexico hit a hoard of colonial weaponry. For weeks he kept listing espadas anchas at ebay, and from time to time also a lance. I saw the files recently looking for something else, if these fossil thread is of interes I could hang them.

There is also some new literature since this thread was started about jinetes de cuera.
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Old 21st September 2017, 03:44 AM   #30
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WOW! Thanks guys! It is great to see these old threads revived, and absolutely please post anything you can.
N.M surfer one of my favorite states!! we are in Washington but about to turn the 'bookmobile' that direction by October.

Always looking for espada anchas and all Spanish colonial things as there are intriguing variations that need very much to be included in cataloguing.
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