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Old 12th November 2008, 01:52 PM   #1
Matchlock
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Default Some late Gothic daggers

... from Peter Finer's site. Fine, noch cheap.

Michael
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Old 12th November 2008, 01:53 PM   #2
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The last image of the Swiss dagger.
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Old 12th November 2008, 02:11 PM   #3
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More.
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Old 12th November 2008, 02:13 PM   #4
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The rest.
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Old 12th November 2008, 04:41 PM   #5
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Mine are prettier...

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Old 13th November 2008, 08:08 PM   #6
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You sure are a lucky guy, celtan! (and a rich one, too).

Michael
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Old 14th November 2008, 02:44 PM   #7
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Jut kiddin', and not really. I'm a working guy just like all of us, with a love for objets d'art disguised as weapons.

And it's all a matter of taste, some may choose dinners at IHOP over Morton's, and with arguably good reasons.





BTW: Very nice posts, Michael. Keep up the good work!

Best regards

Manuel

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You sure are a lucky guy, celtan! (and a rich one, too).

Michael
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Old 14th November 2008, 07:11 PM   #8
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Are they yourīs Manolo? They are very beautiful pieces. Itīs a pity the first photo is not completely clear. Can you give some information about the measures, materials and weight of this pieces? Thank you very much for your attention.
Regards

Gonzalo
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Old 14th November 2008, 09:12 PM   #9
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Muchas Gracias Gonzalo,

I must commend your excellent taste, they are indeed muy bonitas.

OTOH, they are very dangerous, I hope nobody paid the ultimate price after meeting these femmes fatales. Their blades are most wicked.

Will do as you request. In the meanwhile, check these pics. Best if you use the slideshow feature.

http://s353.photobucket.com/albums/...opean%20Dagger/

http://s353.photobucket.com/albums/...0multifullered/
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Old 14th November 2008, 11:20 PM   #10
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Matchlock, i am confused by the Peter Finer tag on all these daggers. Are they currently for sale or up for auction?
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Old 15th November 2008, 09:59 AM   #11
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David,

Peter Finer is an antique arms & armor dealer. Some of these daggers are contained in his current online catalog:

http://peterfiner.com

Michael
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Old 15th November 2008, 04:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
David,

Peter Finer is an antique arms & armor dealer. Some of these daggers are contained in his current online catalog:

http://peterfiner.com

Michael


Interesting site, and Peter Finer is an outstanding dealer who has been around a very long time! What I cant see though is if this is a current auction, which is the concern.
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Old 15th November 2008, 06:01 PM   #13
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Hello, gorgeous daggers!

This one made my eyes bulge. It recalls the decorative scheme we see on the handles of bou-saada (khodme) daggers from Algeria, and we've seen it on some Central Asian and Indo-Persian daggers as well. Almost the same decoration of a circle within a circle, repeated along multiple facets.

The pictures below the ballock dagger show: a dagger from Iran, a khodme, a bichaq, and another khodme (I got the top three pics from older threads, the bottom khodme was mine). The circles are in some cases painted/burned, into the handle surface. None of these examples are particularly old, but it's interesting to see the pattern maintained or revived.

Regards,
Emanuel
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Old 15th November 2008, 10:42 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
David,

Peter Finer is an antique arms & armor dealer. Some of these daggers are contained in his current online catalog:

http://peterfiner.com

Michael

Yes, i am well aware that Peter Finer is a dealer. This is exactly my point. If these are current auctions then they should not be discussed on the forum. It's is the forum rules if you haven't read them.
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Old 15th November 2008, 11:10 PM   #15
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Quote:
Almost the same decoration of a circle within a circle, repeated along multiple facets.

That "cirle within a cirle"-decoration can be seen on many celtic artifacts and, somehow, reappears around the 13th/14th century to be in use throughout the late middle ages. I could well imagine that the eastern and western pieces with that decoration have the same origin in prehistorical times.

btw, here's one of my gothic daggers. A rather rare piece from the first half of the 15th century, German, blade maybe shortened. I will start working on a replica soon.
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Old 16th November 2008, 02:05 AM   #16
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!Muchas gracias, Manuel! I got them all! Now, I have your daggers.
Un abrazo

Gonzalo
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Old 16th November 2008, 02:37 AM   #17
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AFAIK, Finer just groups his items by price on his website. I dont think there is a need to get up in arms, so to speak.

Interesting to see the leatherwork on some of those daggers.

He used to send out some catalogs for free, now they cost a bit but are quite lovely.
If I had tens of thousands of dollars, I could maybe vouch for the items and not just the catalogs

Always interesting to see similar decorations on pieces from different places, but of course, a circle within a circle...about as simple and logical as you can get from a human craftsman, yes?
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Old 16th November 2008, 10:14 AM   #18
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It is quite simple, yes, but every decoration is an expression of style. You can't imagine such a decoration in Chinese art for example. On the other hand, you won't find the simple stroke-decoration of neolithic ceramics on medieval or later pieces. A single unit of decoration can be as simple as possible, but it is only used if it fits the style of a certain time.
there speaks the art historian...
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Old 16th November 2008, 10:59 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Yes, i am well aware that Peter Finer is a dealer. This is exactly my point. If these are current auctions then they should not be discussed on the forum. It's is the forum rules if you haven't read them.


Hi.

Peter is a dealer, not an auction house. But I am curious, can you point me to the rules? Can't seem to find 'em.

Last edited by Ed : 16th November 2008 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 16th November 2008, 11:00 AM   #20
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David,

I can see your point. I did not mean to do wrong. Sorry.

Michael
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Old 16th November 2008, 09:26 PM   #21
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David,

I, like Ed, definitely wish to be pointed to exactly that rule saying that posts concerning dealers' offers are banned from our forum.

Michael
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Old 17th November 2008, 02:09 AM   #22
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Upper is 11.3 oz in wt., almost 16.5" long, and with a 12" blade.

Lower is 6.1 oz. in wt., 13" long, and with a 8.3" blade

Sorry it took this long, but I had them stored in their display.

Best

M

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzalo G
Are they yourīs Manolo? They are very beautiful pieces. Itīs a pity the first photo is not completely clear. Can you give some information about the measures, materials and weight of this pieces? Thank you very much for your attention.
Regards

Gonzalo
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Old 17th November 2008, 02:38 AM   #23
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!Thank you, Manuel! I will writte this specifications on the files.
Un abrazo

Gonzalo
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Old 17th November 2008, 02:55 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
David,

I, like Ed, definitely wish to be pointed to exactly that rule saying that posts concerning dealers' offers are banned from our forum.

Michael

Here is a link to the forum rules gentlemen. If you scroll down you will find rule #1 refers to forum policy regarding live auctions, though it would probably be a good idea to read them all. The Finer site didn't make it clear to me whether his pieces are auctioned or sold for a set price. Frankly i don't think it is a very good idea to post any for sale items, auction or otherwise as it turns the forum into a marketplace instead of an academic forum, but i believe this forum rule really most applies to auctions.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4
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Old 17th November 2008, 06:46 PM   #25
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Thank you, Sir,

I will obey to the rules.

Michael
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Old 18th November 2008, 01:37 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Thank you, Sir,

I will obey to the rules.

Michael



No problems Michael, and thank you for your most courteous response to the concerns expressed by David on whether this was an auction or not. It does seem unusual that these items catalogued are shown with a price range, which led to the assumption this was an auction .

It is clear that your posting of these items was intended for scholarly study purposes rather than commercial, so I would consider that within fair use perameters, and these included the cite for the photo owner.

David, thanks for your input, and for your reiteration on the forum rules. I agree it would be better to avoid posting items out of catalogs currently for sale, however it does seem suggested in the rules that fair use does permit this as long as properly cited, if I understand correctly. In the thread here, these were posted in the context presented for the purpose of scholarly discussion, not a sale thread, in which case they would have gone to the swap forum. I could not find, as Ed noted, anything specifically prohibiting catalog items, only live auction items.
I think that is where the confusion lies.
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Old 18th November 2008, 02:34 PM   #27
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I thought this thread was about gothic daggers and not about the forum rules. Please delete my posting then, unfortunately I cant do it myself.
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Old 18th November 2008, 03:41 PM   #28
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Guys,

Nobody is wrong here. It behooves us to keep things in perspective. We are here to learn, and I haven't seen anyone pushing items for sale so far. I guess that as long as we don't discuss prices, value, or push to sell an item, it's quite clear that we are only benefitting knowledge-wise.

Stekemest's (BTW, Interesting nom-de-guerre: Master of the stake, master of the steak? : ) ) posting is quite valuable for this purpose, as are those of Matchlock, Gonzalo, Fernan , Jim et al...


Manolo
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Old 18th November 2008, 06:35 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stekemest
I thought this thread was about gothic daggers and not about the forum rules. Please delete my posting then, unfortunately I cant do it myself.

Stekemest, i am not sure why you are so upset by the discussion of forum rules. The rules exist for a reason and i believe i raised a legitimate comcern in regards to the Finer site and live auctions. I also believe those concerns have been settled and folks are back to talking about the daggers. Why would you want your posts deleted and your contribution to this discussion erased?
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Old 19th November 2008, 05:18 PM   #30
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Hi, Jim,

Thank you for your good lines - they should really mend fences and be the final word on the subject.
Our forum ought to be inspired by a sense of community, after all.

With my very best wishes,
Michael
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