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Old 25th July 2008, 06:23 PM   #1
hockeysew
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Question Looking for some Kris info

Hey all- nice forum you have here.
I am looking for some information on a couple of items that I inherited a couple years ago. I was cleaning out my safe and decided it was time to find a bit more about them.
I know that they are quite old and do not doubt the origin as they were obtained by my grandfather in the Phillipines when he was in the service. I do know for a fact that he was part of the peacekeeping force there in the early 1900's plus served in WWI.

On the scabbard for the larger item there is a handwritten note that reads:

"This weapon was taken from the hands of one of the most dreaded Momo (or Moro?)
outlaws that ever was captured in Mindinao. His name was Monermdo (might be wrong-hard to read) and he had a large following of Momo (or Moro?)bandits. He with 16 of his band were killed by the 6th (section of note missing) near the Romain (?) River June 4th 1911"


This would have been the timeframe that my grandfather was down there.
If anybody has any knowledge on the history these may have I would like to hear from you.
How would I go about finding a value on them?
Or if anybody knows of a good resource I would appreciate it.
Thanks
A few pics: I can provide more detailed ones if you like.




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Old 26th July 2008, 03:04 AM   #2
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Old 26th July 2008, 03:42 AM   #3
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those look superb!
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Old 26th July 2008, 03:51 AM   #4
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and could the "6th" mean 6th cavalry? they seem to have been active in the philippines around that time.


http://www.6thcavalrymuseum.com/history.html


this might also be informative:


http://www.bakbakan.com/junglep/jp-17.html
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Old 26th July 2008, 02:30 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevalier
and could the "6th" mean 6th cavalry? they seem to have been active in the philippines around that time.


http://www.6thcavalrymuseum.com/history.html


this might also be informative:


http://www.bakbakan.com/junglep/jp-17.html


I am not sure. It could be possible as my family are "Horse" people. My dad is a retired veteranarian. Not sure about his dad though. I will have to ask him.

Any idea of a value? I would like to get some insurance on some items but I need an approx. # as I have to give an itemized list to the agent.
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Old 26th July 2008, 06:50 PM   #6
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The kris looks Maranao with an anting-anting cloth. Nice to have the attribution and history.

The wavy little knife next to is looks like a gunong. Any close ups of that? Mounts on it and the scabbard look like tarnished silver.

The other knife puzzles me, it could be Northern Luzon, but not seen one like this before. Leather scabbard goes to a Northern Luzon sword. Knife hiit looks to be horn and then brass mounts.


Also, the kris looks like it was cleaned (I see light sand paper scratch marks).

Hope this is a start and thank you for posting this. Please post any other goodies.....
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Old 26th July 2008, 07:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeysew
I am not sure. It could be possible as my family are "Horse" people. My dad is a retired veteranarian. Not sure about his dad though. I will have to ask him.

Any idea of a value? I would like to get some insurance on some items but I need an approx. # as I have to give an itemized list to the agent.


Sorry, value is not discussed here (part of the rules )

For insurance purposes you'd need a written appraisal .

They are very nice pieces all; Jose, does the dagger look Katipunan to you ?

The little Gunong is quite lovely; I'll bet Steve lusts in his heart for it .
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Old 26th July 2008, 08:24 PM   #8
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It's hard to say - if it is PI, then it could be of that time frame of the PI revolution or a little later - need to see more pictures.
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Old 27th July 2008, 01:10 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Sorry, value is not discussed here (part of the rules )

For insurance purposes you'd need a written appraisal .

They are very nice pieces all; Jose, does the dagger look Katipunan to you ?

The little Gunong is quite lovely; I'll bet Steve lusts in his heart for it .


Thanks for the input.
I will take some better pics tomorrow and post them showing some better detail.
I spoke to my dad and he said these are exactly how he remembers them and is as recieved from his father. He does not believ his dad sanded the blades but he was known for taking phenominal care of his stuff.
If value is not discussed here(Sorry, didnt know) how would I go about ascertaining a viable $ amount?
Thank You
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Old 28th July 2008, 06:58 PM   #10
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Default More Pictures!

I snapped some more pics of these 3 items today and hopefully they came out well and show more detail. I am relying on you: THE EXPERTS for any info you can provide. Sorry if the pics arent the best.

Both the Kereis and Gunong appear to be silver mounted. They are tarnished pretty heavily and aside from wiping with a damp cloth I dont want to go further and commit any dis-service to the items.
I do not know the proper nomenclature so bear with, I am more of a Bowie blade person so that is the venacular I shall use. Here goes.

On the Gunong it appears that on the blade side of the hilt it is copper while the handle side is silver. It also appears that one thin silver ring is missing from the scabbard.





Last edited by hockeysew : 28th July 2008 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 28th July 2008, 06:59 PM   #11
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Default Kereis Pics!

On the Kereis it appears that both of the handle bolsters are also silver, with some ornate work on them. The file work on the blade is superb. I am not sure if all of the strings tied to the handle are supposed to be there but I will not remove them. On the red cloth tied to the handle there is some staining, which to me looks suspiciously like blood stain.
The wrapping material for the handle appears to have different colors but I cannot be sure.






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Old 28th July 2008, 07:00 PM   #12
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Default Dagger Pics

On the long dagger it appears that the hilt is silver with brass bolsters. The assumption of bone handle I believe is an accurate one. This dagger is of heavy blade construction, probably 3/16 to 1/4" thick. Makes me wonder if it originally wasn't a spear point? The engraving is rather crude and only on one side of the blade. I find the shaking hands engraved near the hilt to be interesting, although I have no idea of the meaning.





I was assured by my father that none of these blades were ever sanded or steel wooled to clean them. According to him his dad had them shipped back to Colorado from the Phillipines while his dad was stationed over there prior to WW1. They hung in the Hardware store that my grandmother and grandfather ran until his death, at which time my father was given them. My dad put them in a footlocker along with grandfathers military stuff.
They have remained in Colorado all this time so rust etc from humidity is not a problem. They now reside in a climate controlled safe.
Any info you guys (and gals) can provide would be great.
How would one go about getting them appraised/value?
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Old 29th July 2008, 01:26 AM   #13
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On the gunong, those are silver mounts on the scabbard with one thin one missing.

On the bottom dagger, I have never seen one like that before, but the hilt I am now convinced is narra wood which has a red color that darkens over time. It is what I would call a northern okir engraving. The hands look familiar - perhaps a Katipunan sign of brotherhood? (would need to look up my info if I can find it).

Again, I don't think the leather sheath goes with the knife, but is early and may belong to a Pampangan sword.

All well preserved.
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Old 29th July 2008, 03:06 AM   #14
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"This weapon was taken from the hands of one of the most dreaded Momo (or Moro?)
outlaws that ever was captured in Mindinao. His name was Monermdo (might be wrong-hard to read) and he had a large following of Momo (or Moro?)bandits. He with 16 of his band were killed by the 6th (section of note missing) near the Romain (?) River June 4th 1911"






Probably "near Ramain", one of the 15 Sultanates created by the Maranaos in the 18th and 19th century.
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Old 29th July 2008, 05:01 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reichsritter
"This weapon was taken from the hands of one of the most dreaded Momo (or Moro?)
outlaws that ever was captured in Mindinao. His name was Monermdo (might be wrong-hard to read) and he had a large following of Momo (or Moro?)bandits. He with 16 of his band were killed by the 6th (section of note missing) near the Romain (?) River June 4th 1911"






Probably "near Ramain", one of the 15 Sultanates created by the Maranaos in the 18th and 19th century.


That would make sense.
Thank You.
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Old 30th July 2008, 03:40 AM   #16
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here's my 0.02 cents..... I do not want to say this, but judging from your pictures alone, I dont think this is a "captured" blade. Similarly to the gunong. Yes, they both have some age, but IMHO, they both are of souvenir quality made for the outgoing soldiers. Hope others can prove me wrong....
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Old 30th July 2008, 07:41 AM   #17
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IMHO this kris is a genuine piece crafted the traditonal Moro way (separate gangya, regular blade thickness, original hilt & pommel with silver bands, solid asang-asang (clamps), original anting-anting cloth); I'd guess that the blade is laminated.

I think it dates around the turn of the 19th/20th century: Without collecting date I'd had estimated 1895-1930 and with the collecting date 1895-1905 seems reasonable. Such a complete piece with sound provenance is rare regardless of age.

I agree that the workmanship (e. g. scroll work on both sides of the gangya, scabbard, etc) is not top-notch, especially not datu quality. However, I'd suggest that comparing kris crafted during the US occupation (BTW, I love how everone contesting US troops becomes a bandit or outlaw ) with mid-19th century (or older) kris is like comparing apples with oranges.

Regards,
Kai
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Old 30th July 2008, 07:44 AM   #18
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BTW, I also think this is a good early gunong - get it to Steve and the laminations will make you a believer, I guess.
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Old 30th July 2008, 08:57 AM   #19
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Everything i've learned on this forum says that your gunong is a very nice older one. Maybe in the range of 1890-1920? Dating is so very difficult. But for sure it's a nice one, as is the kris. I have a couple that are similar. Oddly to me, most that I have with this very curvy blade are not laminated. Can't explain that. Possibly with such a small blade there was no need to mix the high and lower carbon steels? I don't know.

The other dagger is a mystery to me. I haven't seen anything in that style before. But the quality is good, and it does seem to be Philippine.

I would be prould to own any of these 3 pieces. Treasure them for their value as antique weapons, and for the fact that they belonged to your grandfather.

If you want to see some pics of some of my gunong, they are at http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v.../Public/Gunong/

Steve
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Old 30th July 2008, 03:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PenangsangII
here's my 0.02 cents..... I do not want to say this, but judging from your pictures alone, I dont think this is a "captured" blade. Similarly to the gunong. Yes, they both have some age, but IMHO, they both are of souvenir quality made for the outgoing soldiers. Hope others can prove me wrong....

Penangsang, i am confused as to why you would say this. From everything we have seen in the past on these forums this kris is definitely a very solid, battle quality kris. It is consistent with the time period sited and the blade is of a better than average quality. I would not say, however, that the hilt is of datu quality, though this may well not be the original hilt. The asang-asang does look messed with and not quite in it's proper place. Whether or not it was "captured" remains to be seen, but there is certainly nothing touristy about it, or that rather lovely gugong with the silver fittings.
The other dagger i have never seen before. It appears to be a solid and effective weapon however, and is hardly your standard tourist fare. The grasping hands is, i believe , a Katipunan symbol. Isn't it on their flag or something. I am sure someone hear can remember.
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Old 30th July 2008, 05:54 PM   #21
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This is not a uncommon blade & from everything I know it's a Maranao fighting kris. I have two with similar hilts. The two I have are almost identical & are the same as the one in this post. IMO the blade is excellent, as well the file work, a standard that is lacking on newer swords. This blade is heavy & thicker then the normal kris. Something that makes me wonder if that was intentional considering the period. (less swings/more bang)
1911 is a interesting year. The conflicts were many & this would lead to Pershing giving the general instruction latter that year to disarm the Moro. These swords were collected as trophies & led to the orders that all confiscated weapons were to be destroyed. I imagine there may have been a few hustles amongst soldiers for where/how the weapon was collected in sales of these pieces. The 6th Calvary was very active in the South at this time & I would think if someone was in the 6th, access to a piece like this was high.
There is a big discrepancy to the amount of Moro killed in these conflicts. It didn't look good in the papers in the US & with a very lop sided casualty rate it would seem likely the military was looking to down play the Moro engagements/reports, at the same time securing hot spots.
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Old 30th July 2008, 09:18 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Penangsang, i am confused as to why you would say this. From everything we have seen in the past on these forums this kris is definitely a very solid, battle quality kris. It is consistent with the time period sited and the blade is of a better than average quality. I would not say, however, that the hilt is of datu quality, though this may well not be the original hilt. The asang-asang does look messed with and not quite in it's proper place. Whether or not it was "captured" remains to be seen, but there is certainly nothing touristy about it, or that rather lovely gugong with the silver fittings.


Perhaps there was a bamboo wedge to tighten the asang .
My Maranao has such wedges .
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Old 30th July 2008, 10:58 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
IMHO this kris is a genuine piece crafted the traditonal Moro way (separate gangya, regular blade thickness, original hilt & pommel with silver bands, solid asang-asang (clamps), original anting-anting cloth); I'd guess that the blade is laminated.

I think it dates around the turn of the 19th/20th century: Without collecting date I'd had estimated 1895-1930 and with the collecting date 1895-1905 seems reasonable. Such a complete piece with sound provenance is rare regardless of age.

I agree that the workmanship (e. g. scroll work on both sides of the gangya, scabbard, etc) is not top-notch, especially not datu quality. However, I'd suggest that comparing kris crafted during the US occupation (BTW, I love how everone contesting US troops becomes a bandit or outlaw ) with mid-19th century (or older) kris is like comparing apples with oranges.

Regards,
Kai



I do not believe that the blade is a laminated/Damascus style. I see no indications of any type of lamination.
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Old 31st July 2008, 12:23 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeysew
I do not believe that the blade is a laminated/Damascus style. I see no indications of any type of lamination.


I'd agree with Bill, Kai and the others in that this is a good older -- 1890's blade and though you may not be able to see laminations in it's present state of "polish" I would be very surprised if it was NOT laminated. You could etch it using methods described in several posts on this forum and see.

I have several similar kris and they have laminated blades.
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Old 31st July 2008, 12:39 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeysew
I do not believe that the blade is a laminated/Damascus style. I see no indications of any type of lamination.



safest way to find out is by placing the blade under hot running water... look for lamination patterns...
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Old 31st July 2008, 12:45 AM   #26
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I will look into it a bit more and let yall know what I find.
Thanks
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Old 31st July 2008, 02:18 AM   #27
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The two I have are not laminated tend to doubt this one will be. Plenty of rail road tracks by this time.
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Old 31st July 2008, 03:03 AM   #28
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I DID A QUICK SEARCH IN THE OLD FORUM ARCHIVES FOR 2000 TO 2004 AND FOUND A POST BY CRAIG TITLED (WHO'S THE BEST APPRAISER) IT WAS POSTED IN 01/15/2002 AND LISTS SEVERAL GOOD APPRAISERS TAKE A LOOK USING THE SEARCH FUNCTION. CONGRADULATIONS ON YOUR THREE ITEMS THEY ALL LOOK GOOD TO ME. GOOD LUCK
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Old 31st July 2008, 01:43 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spunjer
safest way to find out is by placing the blade under hot running water... look for lamination patterns...



Well that's cool! Great tip.
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