It certainly is very old ... but what is it ?

fernando · 7th May 2008, 12:13 AM

Total length 36 cms. (14").
Pattern of marks on both sides has a similar tendence, although more extended on the front. On the back, near the socket, there is small symbol ... maker's mark ?
As so often with these things, it can be seen by the beaten socket bottom, that it was some time used as a "modern utensile", like a chisel.
It was gathered in the Country interior, in a tiny country village with a very old monastery and a medieval tower, this now used for residential tourism. This doesn't mean this piece once belonged there, but it has all the looks of being a very old item ... in my ignorance, i would dare 17th century ???

.
One thing that intrigues me, not being a connoisseur, is the edges of the blade, that are completely "squared".
Although the socket and the general shape of this piece makes me think this is a weapon, i wouldn't be sure without a help from someone who being more within this area, or has ever seen something similar.
Gentlemen, i will apreciate your coments.
Fernando

Rick · 7th May 2008, 12:21 AM

A spear or lance butt / shoe ?

fernando · 7th May 2008, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

A spear or lance butt / shoe ?

Good hint ... indeed

.
But then, being a secondary component, to be used near (and into) the ground, why the decoration ?
... Just thinking out loud

.

David · 7th May 2008, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

But then, being a secondary component, to be used near (and into) the ground, why the decoration ?

Why not?

A. G. Maisey · 7th May 2008, 08:52 AM

How about a depth gauge for a grain bin?

Royston · 7th May 2008, 11:23 AM

I have seen these marks before on African spear butts. Cannot remember which ones but Kenyan area.

Royston

fernando · 8th May 2008, 12:22 AM

Thsnk you all, Gentlemen,

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Why not?

Yes your'e right, why not ? Well, i actually wouldn't know, that is, the decoration issue alone might not be the obstacle to the lance/pike butt plausibility, but the structure "ratio" ( length versus thickness), don't make the right combination for a device which purpose is to hit or even penetrate the ground, without easily bending. In case its version was more that one to serve as a spear back support, it lacks the minimum of sharpeness

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

How about a depth gauge for a grain bin?

Not being so sure about the haft weapon butt hipothesis, i would prefer it, in this case

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royston

I have seen these marks before on African spear butts. Cannot remember which ones but Kenyan area.

I don't know enough to bet, but i don't think this thing is African; the iron thickness, the socket and blade shapes... The marks don't have to be a pinpoint; they are "universal" lines, in the due context they can be found all over ... in my igorance

.
Can you remember where you saw those Kenyan marks?

Fernando

VANDOO · 8th May 2008, 03:32 AM

METAL BUTT SPIKES NOT ONLY SERVE THE PURPOSE OF ENABELING THE SPEAR TO BE STUCK UPRIGHT IF THE GROUND IS SOFT ENOUGH, BUT MAY ALSO AID IN THE BALANCE OF A THROWN SPEAR ?. THEY COULD ALSO BE USED AS A SORT OF TOOL IN SOME INSTANCES, THE DESIGNS ON THIS ONE ARE ALL SIMPLE LINE DESIGNS USED JUST ABOUT EVERYWHERE AND ARE A VERY PRIMITAVE SORT I NOTE IT HAS A HOLE FOR ATACHMENT TO A SHAFT. THE SOCKET IS A VERY OPEN TYPE AND WITH JUST ONE NAIL TO HOLD, IT WOULD NOT MAKE A VERY GOOD WEAPON AS IT WOULD BE MORE PRONE TO COME LOSE.
NOW FOR SOME FUN I WILL PROPOSE A USE WHICH MAY NOT HAVE PREVIOUSLY BEEN THOUGHT OF. THE SQUARE FORM AND THE DESIGNS WOULD BE GOOD FOR SCRATCHING BETWEEN THE TOES OR REMOVING MUD WITHOUT BENDING DOWN A HANDY TOOL FOR THOSE WHO ARE ALWAYS BAREFOOT.

Royston · 8th May 2008, 08:10 AM

Fernando,

I am away from home at work for the next couple of weeks, when I get back I will have a sort through the " Spear Pile " I am almost certain I still have a spear with this type of marking on it. If I can find it I will post.

Royston

katana · 8th May 2008, 01:11 PM

Hi Fernando

,
I also believe it is a spear butt. A spiked butt had a use for 'sticking' in the ground..... and 'if needs must' your enemy.

It is unlikely this was a counterweight for a throwing spear. Throwing spears by definition are lighter (in weight) to achieve greater distance.... usually iron is 'coiled' wrapped at the butt end if weight was required.

The type of spear with a spiked butt are usually the 'held' type and often used in battle like a wooden staff (quarter staff, 'Bo' the Japanese version etc) Obviously the bladed spearhead could be used to stab, but also was used to slash / cut when used in an arcing motion. The spiked butt was useful for defence from attacks from the rear or side.

The Masai, when facing a lion, have been reported as holding the spear, butt stuck into the ground as the lion leaps to attack. In this way the animal's weight provides the penetrative force...the butt prevents the spear from 'sliding'.

Shaka, modified the traditional spear by shortening the shaft and increasing the size of the bladed spearhead. Due to the 'regimented' tactics he employed ie lines of zulu's using shields to deflect attack and expose the assailant to a stabbing attack. (A very similar tactic used by the Romans .. ...however they used the gladius, the short stabbing sword which was well suited to this technique.)
Shaka negated the spear butt because (a) having 'lines' of men in rows meant that their 'backs' were protected and (b) with the 'row' in front stabbing the enemy there was a real danger of a spear butt injurying warriors in the 'row' behind ....ouch

Your example could be ceremonial, but am sure a spear butt nethertheless.

Kind Regards David

fernando · 8th May 2008, 01:14 PM

Thank you Barry

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

METAL BUTT SPIKES NOT ONLY SERVE THE PURPOSE OF ENABELING THE SPEAR TO BE STUCK UPRIGHT IF THE GROUND IS SOFT ENOUGH, ... AT A PRIOR STAGE BUTT CONES WOULD ALSO HAVE TO BE STRONG ENOUGH TO FIX THE LANCE TIGHTLY AGAINST "ANY" GROUND AND HOLD IT IN ANGLE, TO RETAIN THE CAVALRY HORSES WHEN THEY ATACKED . BUT MAY ALSO AID IN THE BALANCE OF A THROWN SPEAR ?. THEY COULD ALSO BE USED AS A SORT OF TOOL IN SOME INSTANCES, THE DESIGNS ON THIS ONE ARE ALL SIMPLE LINE DESIGNS USED JUST ABOUT EVERYWHERE AND ARE A VERY PRIMITAVE SORT. ... AS I SAID, I AM CONVINCED THIS THING IS A GOOD COUPLE CENTURIES OLD. OBVIOUSLY, IF IT WERE AN AFRICAN ITEM, ITS RUSTICITY WOULD HAVE A DIFFERENT INTERPRETATION, AS BEING OF MUCH LESS AGE, BUT I WOULDN'T GO FOR AFRICA UNLESS A SIMILAR ITEM POPS UP . I NOTE IT HAS A HOLE FOR ATACHMENT TO A SHAFT. THE SOCKET IS A VERY OPEN TYPE AND WITH JUST ONE NAIL TO HOLD, IT WOULD NOT MAKE A VERY GOOD WEAPON AS IT WOULD BE MORE PRONE TO COME LOSE. ... BUT THEN, A TOOL WOULDN'T HAVE SUCH DECORATION, SPECIALLY IF IT WERE A GROUND TOOL

NOW FOR SOME FUN I WILL PROPOSE A USE WHICH MAY NOT HAVE PREVIOUSLY BEEN THOUGHT OF. THE SQUARE FORM AND THE DESIGNS WOULD BE GOOD FOR SCRATCHING BETWEEN THE TOES OR REMOVING MUD WITHOUT BENDING DOWN A HANDY TOOL FOR THOSE WHO ARE ALWAYS BAREFOOT.

... BRILLIANT ... THAT REMINDS ME OF ELEPHANT FEET TRIMMING KITS

http://www.elephant.se/trimming_elephant_feet.php

Fernando

fernando · 8th May 2008, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royston

... I am almost certain I still have a spear with this type of marking on it. If I can find it I will post.
Royston

Thank you so much, Royston.

Fernando

fernando · 8th May 2008, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Fernando

... I also believe it is a spear butt ...
... Your example could be ceremonial, but am sure a spear butt nethertheless.

I David,
I have missed your post, which you submitted whilst i was "rehearsing" mine. You know, some times i have to go back a zillion times to "improve" my louzy english in the paragraphs i find more bizarre, so my posts take ages to be submited.
Say, would you tell this piece is European or African ... which is almost the same as telling, would this be a modern or an ancient object ?
Fernando

katana · 9th May 2008, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I David,
You know, some times i have to go back a zillion times to "improve" my louzy english .............................................

Say, would you tell this piece is European or African ... which is almost the same as telling, would this be a modern or an ancient object ?
Fernando

Hi Fernando,
firstly..... your English is excellent ....but please dont ask me to reply in Portugese

I am not certain as to the origins...or date. Instinct suggests African but....there is a nagging doubt which I cannot 'put my finger on'.

Looking at the pictures I noticed, what appears to be a rusted rivet or 'nail' ....it follows the 'centre line' position of the 'open' fixing hole. If this is the case, I personally have not seen a 'double fixing' on an African spearhead or butt

Regards David

PS The other hole looks to be 'punched' rather than drilled. if this is the case it would have probably been done during forging, further suggesting either 'primatively' made (meaning without more technical (industrial) tools such as a drill bit) or 'good' age ....

fernando · 9th May 2008, 01:01 AM

Well David,
My english was learnt in the streets; it's only mediocre because i keep checking it in the dictionary ... or in the web

.
It's amazing how different eyes can see distinct things

I don't think that's a nail mark at all; there's no countermark on the other side. What i see there is some kind of punch, like a maker's mark or symbol of some kind. That´s precisely the first sympthom that made me think this thing is European

.
... Plus the the iron structure, namely the socket; wouldn't African stuff be thinner ?
Fernando

katana · 9th May 2008, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

... Plus the the iron structure, namely the socket; wouldn't African stuff be thinner ?
Fernando

Hi Fernando,
I have an old African spear which has 'heavy' socketted butt and spearhead.....so the 'thickness' doesn't mean it can't be African. You have to bear in mind that the butt aids the balance of the spear, even if it is not a 'throwing' type ( 'hand held' spears tend to have heavy 'heads' ) A balanced spear makes it much easier to use in combat (for the same reasons as a nicely 'balanced' sword would)

Could you post a 'close-up' picture of the 'rivet marking' ?

Regards David

Lew · 9th May 2008, 09:32 PM

The markings on the this spear thing seems North African to me? The Xs with the line through them often symbolize a stylized crocodile which are used by the tribes who live along the Nile in the Sudan and Egypt.

Lew

fernando · 9th May 2008, 11:26 PM

This is the best i can get with my tired digital camera

.
Two shots from the mark side and one from the opposite side.
This afternoon i visited someone much more enlightened than me in these things. He is pritty much convinced this piece is a locally made rustic haft weapon (pike) head ... not a butt, nor an African item

.
On the other hand, he doesn't think this mark in the pictures is something intentional.

fernando · 11th May 2008, 01:25 AM

I am still intrigued with that misterious sort of mark. Althought this guy i met doesn't beleive it was made intentionally, i find it dificult to be an accidental flaw. But what do i know ?
No further coments, Gentlemen ?
I would love to hear more about its tendence to be European or African, after all that has been said, as also your opinions about it being (or not) a pike (or sort of) head.
Thans a lot.

M ELEY · 14th May 2008, 12:10 AM

Sorry...was away and just stumbled onto this thread. This is a Spanish colonial lance head with classic criss-cross markings and stars in the pre-Mexico styling. These markings are exactly like those found on several of my colonial cutlass (see Pirate weapons thread). I've seen several of these over the years and initially thought they might have been more South American in nature. Guachos used a primative lance with heads like this one. I know I saw one somewhere recently. Let me look around...

M ELEY · 14th May 2008, 12:17 AM

Well, not the good one I saw several months ago with similar decorations, but still, an example...
www.antiqueswords.com/bq943.htm

fernando · 14th May 2008, 12:56 AM

Thanks a lot Mark,
I will surely follow your track on Spanish colonial stuff, as i will be much obliged you come back with any further material.
The picture in the link is a start ... though my example looks a bit different ... cruder ... and older ?
Could you at any time post (me) pictures of those cutlasses with the mentioned criss cross and star markings ?
fernandoviana@netcabo.pt
Thanks again
Fernando

M ELEY · 22nd May 2008, 05:16 PM

Hello Fernando,
Sorry to take awhile getting back to this thread. I am extremely computer-challenged when it comes to posting pics. RSword/Rick has helped me in the past, but alas, he has moved away

Jim McDougal has personally held the cutlass in question, which he more positively identified as Brazilian and can attest to the striated lines and exact star markings on these Spanish pieces. I could try and photo them and snail-mail you a copy (if I'm lucky enough to get details out of photos) or a rubbing/tracing. Jim, do you happen to have any pics of espada with these star and line work markings??

M ELEY · 24th May 2008, 05:07 AM

OK, FINALLY found one of these. Well, Jim McDougal was right on again about these cutlass being Brazilian...this is a nice one! Anyway, I digress...
Check out this link-
www.jfsantiquearms.com/edged_weapons/60.html#
From here, look under "more Views" and select View 3.
Note the criss-cross patterning and star-like marking with dots.

Jim McDougall · 24th May 2008, 05:37 PM

Hi Mark,
I just noted the thread, and just wanted to thank you for the kind words. I was delighted when I found the Brazilian attribution which I found in another source. It was a relief for me as well to finally find the answer to these mysterious swords after all of our pondering on them !

Besides that it opened a new dimension to our study on Spanish colonial weapons.
Nice work at noting the connection on Fernando's most interesting (as always!) acquisition.

All the best,
Jim

katana · 24th May 2008, 06:15 PM

Hi,
Interestingly Brazil's historical connections with Portugal , might explain why a Brazillian piece ended up there .....or ...if not from Brazil, could indicate that, indeed, this is very old and shows the influences that pre-date the materialised on Brazillian 'pieces'.

However, as already stated 'lined designs used as decoration are found in many cultures, countries and 'time periods' and may be difficult to ID.

Fernando, as I said before I have a doubt this is African but, historically Portugal and Brazil were involved in the 'slave trade' and it is quite possible that your item was influenced or made by an African culture.

My main 'doubt' that this is African is the fact that the 'point' is offset from the socket. All African ones I have seen have the 'point' centrally placed.

A Mystery

Regards David

Jim McDougall · 24th May 2008, 06:48 PM

As a very wise arms writer once told me, "..weapons do not know geographic boundaries".
While it may be difficult to assign a geographic attribution to this piece, the influences noted profoundly stand, and the slave trade definitely carried these far and wide via the vast routes that commerce followed.

A mystery indeed David, and for all of us weapons Indiana Joneses ....the games afoot!!! (Holmes

fernando · 25th May 2008, 06:43 PM

Thank you Mark, both for the link and for keeping to your promise.
Thank you Indiana, i mean Jim

. Absolutely right; weapons do not know geographic boundaries ... pitty they know price boundaries

Thank you David. If i well understand you, i don't think the point was originaly off centered; this must have happened when somebody decided that this object would make a good chisel

... it seems as its hammering caused a little crack in the socket which resulted in its bending.
About the provenance, i must confess that, at this stage, i have no more certainties than when i started querying on this piece, despite some respectfull opinnions posted by you Gents. However my inclination goes to both Mark's and this local guy's opinnion that it is a sort of lance or pike head. Following that reasoning, i tend to think this is not African or Afro influenced, but of (very old) European trace. Putting Africa out of question and, considering it has been picked somewhere in the interior, it would then be Portuguese or, in second place, Spanish rather than from further European countries.
However naturaly i can only agree that, till some stronger evidence shows up, the game's afoot.

M ELEY · 26th May 2008, 07:17 AM

It is true that we may never know for sure, nor did I intend to poo-poo

anyone's else's opinions on this mystery piece. My reasoning for it being Spanish Colonial and not African was deductive-
1) The generalized shape matches that of European, American and Span Colonial in that it resembles a boarding pike-type shape, square-shaped in cross section.
2) It was apparently secured to the haft with a nail/pin or other securing device, so common on Euro/Amer/Span Colonial pikes, spontoons, lances, etc.
3) The designs on it very closely match those found on Colonial Spanish/S American swords and espada.
4) It's primitive composition and crudeness, with all the evidence above, points to "backwoods" Spanish Colonial work. If one ever looks at the iron-work from the Southwest, Mexico, the Pampas, you will see what I'm talking about. Quality ranges from very fine work (Mexican spurs and espada come to mind) to the very primitive (the put-together sword I pictured under the Pirate thread with the brazed guard is an example).
In any case, I like it! Too bad someone bent it as they did.

M ELEY · 26th May 2008, 08:16 AM

www.classicalfencing.com/mcweaponslance.php
A quarter way down page, pic of 4 lances with one being Span 18th cent (you will see the resenblence)

http://www.collectableweapons.com/Li...info.php?id=65
Shows primitive/crudeness of some pieces

http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i...tore.html#item
Note hole in base. Description says decorative notches/barbs, but unfortunately pic doesn't show this.

7th May 2008, 12:13 AM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	It certainly is very old ... but what is it ? Total length 36 cms. (14"). Pattern of marks on both sides has a similar tendence, although more extended on the front. On the back, near the socket, there is small symbol ... maker's mark ? As so often with these things, it can be seen by the beaten socket bottom, that it was some time used as a "modern utensile", like a chisel. It was gathered in the Country interior, in a tiny country village with a very old monastery and a medieval tower, this now used for residential tourism. This doesn't mean this piece once belonged there, but it has all the looks of being a very old item ... in my ignorance, i would dare 17th century ??? . One thing that intrigues me, not being a connoisseur, is the edges of the blade, that are completely "squared". Although the socket and the general shape of this piece makes me think this is a weapon, i wouldn't be sure without a help from someone who being more within this area, or has ever seen something similar. Gentlemen, i will apreciate your coments. Fernando Attached Images

7th May 2008, 12:21 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,263	A spear or lance butt / shoe ? Attached Images

7th May 2008, 11:23 AM	#6
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 441	It certainly is very old ... but what is it ? I have seen these marks before on African spear butts. Cannot remember which ones but Kenyan area. Royston

9th May 2008, 09:32 PM	#17
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	The markings on the this spear thing seems North African to me? The Xs with the line through them often symbolize a stylized crocodile which are used by the tribes who live along the Nile in the Sudan and Egypt. Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 9th May 2008 at 10:13 PM.

9th May 2008, 11:26 PM	#18
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	This is the best i can get with my tired digital camera . Two shots from the mark side and one from the opposite side. This afternoon i visited someone much more enlightened than me in these things. He is pritty much convinced this piece is a locally made rustic haft weapon (pike) head ... not a butt, nor an African item . On the other hand, he doesn't think this mark in the pictures is something intentional. Attached Images

7th May 2008, 08:52 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,714	How about a depth gauge for a grain bin?

8th May 2008, 03:32 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	METAL BUTT SPIKES NOT ONLY SERVE THE PURPOSE OF ENABELING THE SPEAR TO BE STUCK UPRIGHT IF THE GROUND IS SOFT ENOUGH, BUT MAY ALSO AID IN THE BALANCE OF A THROWN SPEAR ?. THEY COULD ALSO BE USED AS A SORT OF TOOL IN SOME INSTANCES, THE DESIGNS ON THIS ONE ARE ALL SIMPLE LINE DESIGNS USED JUST ABOUT EVERYWHERE AND ARE A VERY PRIMITAVE SORT I NOTE IT HAS A HOLE FOR ATACHMENT TO A SHAFT. THE SOCKET IS A VERY OPEN TYPE AND WITH JUST ONE NAIL TO HOLD, IT WOULD NOT MAKE A VERY GOOD WEAPON AS IT WOULD BE MORE PRONE TO COME LOSE. NOW FOR SOME FUN I WILL PROPOSE A USE WHICH MAY NOT HAVE PREVIOUSLY BEEN THOUGHT OF. THE SQUARE FORM AND THE DESIGNS WOULD BE GOOD FOR SCRATCHING BETWEEN THE TOES OR REMOVING MUD WITHOUT BENDING DOWN A HANDY TOOL FOR THOSE WHO ARE ALWAYS BAREFOOT.

8th May 2008, 08:10 AM	#9
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 441	Fernando, I am away from home at work for the next couple of weeks, when I get back I will have a sort through the " Spear Pile " I am almost certain I still have a spear with this type of marking on it. If I can find it I will post. Royston

8th May 2008, 01:11 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Fernando , I also believe it is a spear butt. A spiked butt had a use for 'sticking' in the ground..... and 'if needs must' your enemy. It is unlikely this was a counterweight for a throwing spear. Throwing spears by definition are lighter (in weight) to achieve greater distance.... usually iron is 'coiled' wrapped at the butt end if weight was required. The type of spear with a spiked butt are usually the 'held' type and often used in battle like a wooden staff (quarter staff, 'Bo' the Japanese version etc) Obviously the bladed spearhead could be used to stab, but also was used to slash / cut when used in an arcing motion. The spiked butt was useful for defence from attacks from the rear or side. The Masai, when facing a lion, have been reported as holding the spear, butt stuck into the ground as the lion leaps to attack. In this way the animal's weight provides the penetrative force...the butt prevents the spear from 'sliding'. Shaka, modified the traditional spear by shortening the shaft and increasing the size of the bladed spearhead. Due to the 'regimented' tactics he employed ie lines of zulu's using shields to deflect attack and expose the assailant to a stabbing attack. (A very similar tactic used by the Romans .. ...however they used the gladius, the short stabbing sword which was well suited to this technique.) Shaka negated the spear butt because (a) having 'lines' of men in rows meant that their 'backs' were protected and (b) with the 'row' in front stabbing the enemy there was a real danger of a spear butt injurying warriors in the 'row' behind ....ouch Your example could be ceremonial, but am sure a spear butt nethertheless. Kind Regards David

9th May 2008, 01:01 AM	#15
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Well David, My english was learnt in the streets; it's only mediocre because i keep checking it in the dictionary ... or in the web . It's amazing how different eyes can see distinct things I don't think that's a nail mark at all; there's no countermark on the other side. What i see there is some kind of punch, like a maker's mark or symbol of some kind. That´s precisely the first sympthom that made me think this thing is European . ... Plus the the iron structure, namely the socket; wouldn't African stuff be thinner ? Fernando

11th May 2008, 01:25 AM	#19
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	I am still intrigued with that misterious sort of mark. Althought this guy i met doesn't beleive it was made intentionally, i find it dificult to be an accidental flaw. But what do i know ? No further coments, Gentlemen ? I would love to hear more about its tendence to be European or African, after all that has been said, as also your opinions about it being (or not) a pike (or sort of) head. Thans a lot.

14th May 2008, 12:10 AM	#20
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,073	Sorry...was away and just stumbled onto this thread. This is a Spanish colonial lance head with classic criss-cross markings and stars in the pre-Mexico styling. These markings are exactly like those found on several of my colonial cutlass (see Pirate weapons thread). I've seen several of these over the years and initially thought they might have been more South American in nature. Guachos used a primative lance with heads like this one. I know I saw one somewhere recently. Let me look around...

14th May 2008, 12:17 AM	#21
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,073	Well, not the good one I saw several months ago with similar decorations, but still, an example... www.antiqueswords.com/bq943.htm

14th May 2008, 12:56 AM	#22
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Thanks a lot Mark, I will surely follow your track on Spanish colonial stuff, as i will be much obliged you come back with any further material. The picture in the link is a start ... though my example looks a bit different ... cruder ... and older ? Could you at any time post (me) pictures of those cutlasses with the mentioned criss cross and star markings ? fernandoviana@netcabo.pt Thanks again Fernando

22nd May 2008, 05:16 PM	#23
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,073	Hello Fernando, Sorry to take awhile getting back to this thread. I am extremely computer-challenged when it comes to posting pics. RSword/Rick has helped me in the past, but alas, he has moved away Jim McDougal has personally held the cutlass in question, which he more positively identified as Brazilian and can attest to the striated lines and exact star markings on these Spanish pieces. I could try and photo them and snail-mail you a copy (if I'm lucky enough to get details out of photos) or a rubbing/tracing. Jim, do you happen to have any pics of espada with these star and line work markings??

24th May 2008, 05:07 AM	#24
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,073	OK, FINALLY found one of these. Well, Jim McDougal was right on again about these cutlass being Brazilian...this is a nice one! Anyway, I digress... Check out this link- www.jfsantiquearms.com/edged_weapons/60.html# From here, look under "more Views" and select View 3. Note the criss-cross patterning and star-like marking with dots. Last edited by M ELEY; 24th May 2008 at 05:08 AM. Reason: mis-spelling

24th May 2008, 05:37 PM	#25
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,770	Hi Mark, I just noted the thread, and just wanted to thank you for the kind words. I was delighted when I found the Brazilian attribution which I found in another source. It was a relief for me as well to finally find the answer to these mysterious swords after all of our pondering on them ! Besides that it opened a new dimension to our study on Spanish colonial weapons. Nice work at noting the connection on Fernando's most interesting (as always!) acquisition. All the best, Jim

24th May 2008, 06:15 PM	#26
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi, Interestingly Brazil's historical connections with Portugal , might explain why a Brazillian piece ended up there .....or ...if not from Brazil, could indicate that, indeed, this is very old and shows the influences that pre-date the materialised on Brazillian 'pieces'. However, as already stated 'lined designs used as decoration are found in many cultures, countries and 'time periods' and may be difficult to ID. Fernando, as I said before I have a doubt this is African but, historically Portugal and Brazil were involved in the 'slave trade' and it is quite possible that your item was influenced or made by an African culture. My main 'doubt' that this is African is the fact that the 'point' is offset from the socket. All African ones I have seen have the 'point' centrally placed. A Mystery Regards David

24th May 2008, 06:48 PM	#27
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,770	As a very wise arms writer once told me, "..weapons do not know geographic boundaries". While it may be difficult to assign a geographic attribution to this piece, the influences noted profoundly stand, and the slave trade definitely carried these far and wide via the vast routes that commerce followed. A mystery indeed David, and for all of us weapons Indiana Joneses ....the games afoot!!! (Holmes

25th May 2008, 06:43 PM	#28
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Thank you Mark, both for the link and for keeping to your promise. Thank you Indiana, i mean Jim . Absolutely right; weapons do not know geographic boundaries ... pitty they know price boundaries Thank you David. If i well understand you, i don't think the point was originaly off centered; this must have happened when somebody decided that this object would make a good chisel ... it seems as its hammering caused a little crack in the socket which resulted in its bending. About the provenance, i must confess that, at this stage, i have no more certainties than when i started querying on this piece, despite some respectfull opinnions posted by you Gents. However my inclination goes to both Mark's and this local guy's opinnion that it is a sort of lance or pike head. Following that reasoning, i tend to think this is not African or Afro influenced, but of (very old) European trace. Putting Africa out of question and, considering it has been picked somewhere in the interior, it would then be Portuguese or, in second place, Spanish rather than from further European countries. However naturaly i can only agree that, till some stronger evidence shows up, the game's afoot. Attached Images

26th May 2008, 07:17 AM	#29
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,073	It is true that we may never know for sure, nor did I intend to poo-poo anyone's else's opinions on this mystery piece. My reasoning for it being Spanish Colonial and not African was deductive- 1) The generalized shape matches that of European, American and Span Colonial in that it resembles a boarding pike-type shape, square-shaped in cross section. 2) It was apparently secured to the haft with a nail/pin or other securing device, so common on Euro/Amer/Span Colonial pikes, spontoons, lances, etc. 3) The designs on it very closely match those found on Colonial Spanish/S American swords and espada. 4) It's primitive composition and crudeness, with all the evidence above, points to "backwoods" Spanish Colonial work. If one ever looks at the iron-work from the Southwest, Mexico, the Pampas, you will see what I'm talking about. Quality ranges from very fine work (Mexican spurs and espada come to mind) to the very primitive (the put-together sword I pictured under the Pirate thread with the brazed guard is an example). In any case, I like it! Too bad someone bent it as they did. Last edited by M ELEY; 26th May 2008 at 07:18 AM. Reason: mis-spelling

26th May 2008, 08:16 AM	#30
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,073	www.classicalfencing.com/mcweaponslance.php A quarter way down page, pic of 4 lances with one being Span 18th cent (you will see the resenblence) http://www.collectableweapons.com/Li...info.php?id=65 Shows primitive/crudeness of some pieces http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i...tore.html#item Note hole in base. Description says decorative notches/barbs, but unfortunately pic doesn't show this.