Gamble by a member here?

Tim Simmons · 9th February 2008, 07:16 PM

This has endad. It seems very large and late for the genre.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&rd=1&item=140204019153&ssPageName=STRK:ME WA:IT&ih=004

If it was bought by a member could they please show better pictures. Recently I have watched quite a number of Maori weapon like objects go for fairly high prices. I have not been convinced that they are any older than the early 20th century unless I am shown otherwise. Personally I not that knowledgeable as to whether these weapons still had a tribal combat relevance at this time unlike knobkerries and other African clubs. I would be very interested to learn more especially if they still had a ceremonial value. I could be compering the more common with the fine examples shown in various publications? I have a book by those "man at arms" book people and by the latter half of the 19th century the photographs of Maori warriors are mostly wearing european clothes and armed with muskets. Thinking the worst I could say that tourist Maori carving has a long history, I hope to be proved wrong. Something new here I think?

The link appears not to be working, here is the number-140204019153

just trying the link again?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=004

kahnjar1 · 9th February 2008, 08:20 PM

Hi Tim,
This certainly LOOKS Maori to me by the shape and carving style (there are many styles). The club of this general shape is called a WAHAIKA. Age COULD BE 19th Cent but even if it is early 20th Century, you have to remember that we are still a relatively YOUNG country, and our ethnic "brothers" were still fighting the white man and themselves. Some of them still are!!
There are large numbers of "tourist" clubs etc available, and some are VERY good. Check out GOOGLE --Maori Weapons--- and you will see what I mean. Unless you can physically get your hands on the thing, it could be quite hard to judge how genuine it is.
Regards Stuart

katana · 9th February 2008, 09:42 PM

Was hoping this Wahaika had gone un-noticed ( since it was listed as African) and I was going to pick this up 'for a song'.....no such luck. E-mailed seller and his description of weight etc certainly suggested that this was could be genuine (as in used,probably ceremoniously... late 19thC ? or a 'top of the range' tourist version.
I had previously searched for other examples on the web, most of which were of the tourist variety....this Wahaika was heavier and slightly larger than all of them, and the carving was more of a traditional form.

The Wahaika is one of the many forms of fighting club used by Maori warriors and was reserved for only the highest ranking and most respected fighters. It is often given as a ceremonial piece on special occasions.
The carved figure on the edge represents either a sacred ancestor or the god of war. The Wahaika was held so that the figure faced the warrior so it could see over his shoulder to protect his back. The notch in the front edge of the blade was used to trap an enemy fighters weapon so that it could be twisted away from the body leaving the opponent open to a fatal blow

Many Austrolasian clubs have, recently, been selling at incredibly high prices...

Regards David

VANDOO · 9th February 2008, 11:04 PM

THE CLUB IS DEFINITELY MAORI AND OF THE WAHAIKA FORM THE SIZE RANGE ON THE MAORI SHORT CLUBS IS FROM 10 TO 20 INCHES APROXIMATELY I ESTIMATE THIS ONE AT 18 INCHES. THE CLUB IS UNUSUAL IN THAT IT HAS A MORE POINTED END RATHER THAN THE USUAL SPATULATE FORM. THERE IS A LESSER ENCOUNTERED MAORI CLUB THE PATUKI THAT HAS A MORE POINTED PADDLE SHAPE TO THE THRUSTING END. THE TIKI OR FIGURE IS UNUSUAL IN THAT THE FIGURE IS USUALLY TOGETHER TOWARD THE HANDLE, THIS EXAMPLE IS EITHER SPLIT HEAD FROM BODY OR PERHAPS IS TWO SEPARATE HEADS? I HOPE SOMEONE IN THE GROUP GOT IT AND WE CAN GET SOME BETTER PICTURES AND INFORMATION. A VERY INTERESTING ITEM PERHAPS A ORIGINAL

BUT FROM THE PICTURES I SUSPECT 1930'S CEREMONIAL OR TOURIST. A NICE CLUB AT ANY RATE AND CONSIDERING THE PRICES BEING PAID THESE DAYS NOT A BAD DEAL EVEN IF IT IS A GOOD HEAVY 1930'S MODEL.

FIGURE 28 IS A PATUKI.
FIGURE 29 & 30 ARE KOTIATE
FIGURE 31 ARE VARIATIONS OF THE WAHAIKA FORM

MY PICTURE OF THE PATU FORM DID NOT LOAD TOO LARGE. IT IS THE MOST PLAIN FORM AND IF MADE OF WOOD, BONE OR LESSER STONE IS REFERED TO AS A PATU IF MADE OF JADE IT IS CALLED MERE OR MERE PONAMU AND IS THE MOST HIGHLY RANKED OF ALL CLUBS SHORT OR LONG.

VANDOO · 10th February 2008, 12:59 AM

I WILL TRY AGAIN TO ADD A PATU FORM, A MERE PONAMU (JADE) AND A KOTIATE PONAMU AND A WAHIKA PONAMU , I DON'T KNOW IF THE LAST TWO JADE FORM CLUBS ARE A OLD FORMS OR SOMETHING MADE LATER SO WEATHER THEY WOULD QUALIFY AS MERE I DON'T KNOW

I HAVE ALSO ADDED TWO PICTURES OF THE ORIGINAL CLUB BEING DISCUSSED FOR REFRENCE.

Bill M · 10th February 2008, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

MY PICTURE OF THE PATU FORM DID NOT LOAD TOO LARGE.

Barry, Thanks for the info on the cubs. This is obviously an area that you know very well.

I suggest a very good free resizing utility. Easy to use with the Windows operating system. Distributed by Microsoft.

Scroll down the right side for a lot of free downloads. Select "image resizer."

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/d...powertoys.mspx

I use it in the 800x600 size. When I do this, I get the added benefit that it makes the files size less than 100kb when I am resizing a 2mb image. A very useful utility!

Tim Simmons · 10th February 2008, 09:51 AM

This first picture is very good giving two views of what is to me is a sculptural masterpiece.

I may be a little unrealistic but I just find the price of the reproduction? even if there is some vintage way off sensible, for something lacking the essence which one desires. However I think I am aware that an earliy one/real one may indeed cost many £££££££, thousands

sadly.

VANDOO · 11th February 2008, 05:51 PM

IN THE ART, INVESTING COLLECTING MARKET OF TODAY I AM A LITTLE MOUSE AMOUNG LIONS AND ELEPHANTS AS FAR AS MONEY AVAILABLE, BUT STILL TRY AND SNEAK OUT AND GRAB A CRUMB FROM TIME TO TIME.

THIS HAS CAUSED ME TO HAVE TO LOWER MY STANDARDS SO IN ORDER TO COLLECT ANYTHING AT ALL, I WILL BUY A NEWLY MADE REPLICA IF IT IS WELL MADE AND AT A REASONABLE PRICE.

HERE ARE SOME PICTURES OF A RECENTLY MADE MUSEUM REPLICA MADE OF CAST PLASTIC. UNFORTUNATELY I HAVE EVEN BEEN OUTBID SEVERAL TIMES ON THESE AS I CAN'T BRING MYSELF TO PAY $90.00 TO $100.00 FOR A PLASTIC CLUB NO MATTER HOW GOOD IT LOOKS.

VANDOO · 11th February 2008, 06:32 PM

HERE ARE SOME MORE RECENT 1960'S TO NEW WOOD MAORI CLUBS. SOME HAVE PUA SHELL (ABALONE) INLAY AND SOME ARE ONLY CARVED ON ONE SIDE AND PLAIN ON THE OTHER. THESE EXAMPLES ARE FOR THE TOURIST MARKET AS ARE THE CAST PLASTIC ONES.

FORTUNATELY THE MAORI PEOPLE ARE STILL KEEPING THEIR CULTURE, BELIEFS, CEREMONYS, TRADITIONS AND CRAFTS ALIVE. THEY STILL HAVE PRIDE IN ALL THE OLD TRADITIONS, ALTHOUGH NOT PRACTING THEIR OLD TRADITIONAL WARFARE YOU CAN STILL SEE IT IN HAKA'S AND SPORTS

WOOD CARVING IS A HONORABLE TRADITION AND VERY IMPORTANT IN THEIR CULTURE, ITS BELIEFS AND CEREMONY. A GOOD CARVER NOT ONLY GETS RESPECT AS AN ARTIST BUT AS A WARRIOR AND KEEPER OF THE OLD TRADITIONS. MANY GOOD CARVEINGS ARE STILL DONE FOR MAORI MEETING HOUSES AND FOR THE MAORI PEOPLE NOT JUST TO SELL. MAORI ARE ALSO GOOD TRADERS AND BUSINESS MEN SO THEY DO TRY TO MEET THE DEMAND FOR SOUVINEERS ALSO.

Tim Simmons · 11th February 2008, 08:02 PM

Hard chease squeak squeak, how fine it must be to roar

.

VANDOO · 11th February 2008, 08:34 PM

THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THE LIONS AND ELEPHANTS AND THE MOUSE AND IN THE PAST WHEN I STARTED COLLECTING I WAS A MOUSE THEN AS WELL . I DID NOT COLLECT JAPANESE, GERMAN, NATIVE AMERICAN OR PERSIAN BECAUSE THE INTREST OF THE BIG CRITTERS WAS FOCUSED THERE AND THE PRICES TOO HIGH FOR A MOUSE.

ETHINOGRAPHIC WEAPONS WERE NOT OF INTREST TO THE LIONS IN THOSE DAYS SO I GOT TO NIBBLE UP PHILIPPINE,AFRICAN,MEXICAN,AND ALL SORTS OF ODD FORIGN ITEMS. IT IS INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT THE MOST FAVORED TYPES OF WEAPONS OF OLD SEEMED TO HAVE TOPPED OUT QUITE A WHILE AGO BUT THE ODDS AND ENDS THAT USED TO BE VERY CHEAP HAVE CLIMED RAPIDLY.
EBAY IS IN MANY WAYS A ARTIFICIAL THING TO BASE PRICES ON ITEMS ,AS SOMETIMES THEY GO FOR 10 TIMES TOO MUCH AND SOMETIMES THEY SELL FOR FAR LESS THAN THEY ARE WORTH. I KEEP LOOKING FOR THAT GOOD DEAL BUT THEY ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO GET AS THE JUNGLE IS FULL OF LIONS ,ELEPHANTS, VARIOUS OTHER CRITTERS AND LOTS OF OTHER MICE.

THE NICE THING ABOUT A MOUSE HAVING A COLLECTION IS WE CAN GO GET OUR FAVORITE ITEMS AND ROAR!!! AND PRETEND WE ARE LIONS AND BE SAFE THAT THE BIG CRITTERS CAN'T GET US.

Tim Simmons · 12th February 2008, 05:13 PM

It is rumoured that Elephants are frighted of mice. Lions are probably far too proud too lazy to consider mice as competition. Mice often unseen do not travel on the main path so they pick up some jolly tasty morsels from time to time on the edge.

9th February 2008, 07:16 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Gamble by a member here? This has endad. It seems very large and late for the genre. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&rd=1&item=140204019153&ssPageName=STRK:ME WA:IT&ih=004 If it was bought by a member could they please show better pictures. Recently I have watched quite a number of Maori weapon like objects go for fairly high prices. I have not been convinced that they are any older than the early 20th century unless I am shown otherwise. Personally I not that knowledgeable as to whether these weapons still had a tribal combat relevance at this time unlike knobkerries and other African clubs. I would be very interested to learn more especially if they still had a ceremonial value. I could be compering the more common with the fine examples shown in various publications? I have a book by those "man at arms" book people and by the latter half of the 19th century the photographs of Maori warriors are mostly wearing european clothes and armed with muskets. Thinking the worst I could say that tourist Maori carving has a long history, I hope to be proved wrong. Something new here I think? The link appears not to be working, here is the number-140204019153 just trying the link again? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...MEWA:IT&ih=004

9th February 2008, 08:20 PM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,729	Certainly not African--but old??? Hi Tim, This certainly LOOKS Maori to me by the shape and carving style (there are many styles). The club of this general shape is called a WAHAIKA. Age COULD BE 19th Cent but even if it is early 20th Century, you have to remember that we are still a relatively YOUNG country, and our ethnic "brothers" were still fighting the white man and themselves. Some of them still are!! There are large numbers of "tourist" clubs etc available, and some are VERY good. Check out GOOGLE --Maori Weapons--- and you will see what I mean. Unless you can physically get your hands on the thing, it could be quite hard to judge how genuine it is. Regards Stuart

9th February 2008, 11:04 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE CLUB IS DEFINITELY MAORI AND OF THE WAHAIKA FORM THE SIZE RANGE ON THE MAORI SHORT CLUBS IS FROM 10 TO 20 INCHES APROXIMATELY I ESTIMATE THIS ONE AT 18 INCHES. THE CLUB IS UNUSUAL IN THAT IT HAS A MORE POINTED END RATHER THAN THE USUAL SPATULATE FORM. THERE IS A LESSER ENCOUNTERED MAORI CLUB THE PATUKI THAT HAS A MORE POINTED PADDLE SHAPE TO THE THRUSTING END. THE TIKI OR FIGURE IS UNUSUAL IN THAT THE FIGURE IS USUALLY TOGETHER TOWARD THE HANDLE, THIS EXAMPLE IS EITHER SPLIT HEAD FROM BODY OR PERHAPS IS TWO SEPARATE HEADS? I HOPE SOMEONE IN THE GROUP GOT IT AND WE CAN GET SOME BETTER PICTURES AND INFORMATION. A VERY INTERESTING ITEM PERHAPS A ORIGINAL BUT FROM THE PICTURES I SUSPECT 1930'S CEREMONIAL OR TOURIST. A NICE CLUB AT ANY RATE AND CONSIDERING THE PRICES BEING PAID THESE DAYS NOT A BAD DEAL EVEN IF IT IS A GOOD HEAVY 1930'S MODEL. FIGURE 28 IS A PATUKI. FIGURE 29 & 30 ARE KOTIATE FIGURE 31 ARE VARIATIONS OF THE WAHAIKA FORM MY PICTURE OF THE PATU FORM DID NOT LOAD TOO LARGE. IT IS THE MOST PLAIN FORM AND IF MADE OF WOOD, BONE OR LESSER STONE IS REFERED TO AS A PATU IF MADE OF JADE IT IS CALLED MERE OR MERE PONAMU AND IS THE MOST HIGHLY RANKED OF ALL CLUBS SHORT OR LONG. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 10th February 2008 at 01:00 AM.

10th February 2008, 12:59 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WILL TRY AGAIN TO ADD A PATU FORM, A MERE PONAMU (JADE) AND A KOTIATE PONAMU AND A WAHIKA PONAMU , I DON'T KNOW IF THE LAST TWO JADE FORM CLUBS ARE A OLD FORMS OR SOMETHING MADE LATER SO WEATHER THEY WOULD QUALIFY AS MERE I DON'T KNOW I HAVE ALSO ADDED TWO PICTURES OF THE ORIGINAL CLUB BEING DISCUSSED FOR REFRENCE. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 10th February 2008 at 03:20 AM.

10th February 2008, 09:51 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	more pics This first picture is very good giving two views of what is to me is a sculptural masterpiece. I may be a little unrealistic but I just find the price of the reproduction? even if there is some vintage way off sensible, for something lacking the essence which one desires. However I think I am aware that an earliy one/real one may indeed cost many £££££££, thousands sadly. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 10th February 2008 at 10:01 AM.

9th February 2008, 09:42 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Was hoping this Wahaika had gone un-noticed ( since it was listed as African) and I was going to pick this up 'for a song'.....no such luck. E-mailed seller and his description of weight etc certainly suggested that this was could be genuine (as in used,probably ceremoniously... late 19thC ? or a 'top of the range' tourist version. I had previously searched for other examples on the web, most of which were of the tourist variety....this Wahaika was heavier and slightly larger than all of them, and the carving was more of a traditional form. The Wahaika is one of the many forms of fighting club used by Maori warriors and was reserved for only the highest ranking and most respected fighters. It is often given as a ceremonial piece on special occasions. The carved figure on the edge represents either a sacred ancestor or the god of war. The Wahaika was held so that the figure faced the warrior so it could see over his shoulder to protect his back. The notch in the front edge of the blade was used to trap an enemy fighters weapon so that it could be twisted away from the body leaving the opponent open to a fatal blow Many Austrolasian clubs have, recently, been selling at incredibly high prices... Regards David

11th February 2008, 05:51 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	REPLICA MAORI CLUBS IN THE ART, INVESTING COLLECTING MARKET OF TODAY I AM A LITTLE MOUSE AMOUNG LIONS AND ELEPHANTS AS FAR AS MONEY AVAILABLE, BUT STILL TRY AND SNEAK OUT AND GRAB A CRUMB FROM TIME TO TIME. THIS HAS CAUSED ME TO HAVE TO LOWER MY STANDARDS SO IN ORDER TO COLLECT ANYTHING AT ALL, I WILL BUY A NEWLY MADE REPLICA IF IT IS WELL MADE AND AT A REASONABLE PRICE. HERE ARE SOME PICTURES OF A RECENTLY MADE MUSEUM REPLICA MADE OF CAST PLASTIC. UNFORTUNATELY I HAVE EVEN BEEN OUTBID SEVERAL TIMES ON THESE AS I CAN'T BRING MYSELF TO PAY $90.00 TO $100.00 FOR A PLASTIC CLUB NO MATTER HOW GOOD IT LOOKS. Attached Images

11th February 2008, 06:32 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	NEWER WOOD MAORI CLUBS HERE ARE SOME MORE RECENT 1960'S TO NEW WOOD MAORI CLUBS. SOME HAVE PUA SHELL (ABALONE) INLAY AND SOME ARE ONLY CARVED ON ONE SIDE AND PLAIN ON THE OTHER. THESE EXAMPLES ARE FOR THE TOURIST MARKET AS ARE THE CAST PLASTIC ONES. FORTUNATELY THE MAORI PEOPLE ARE STILL KEEPING THEIR CULTURE, BELIEFS, CEREMONYS, TRADITIONS AND CRAFTS ALIVE. THEY STILL HAVE PRIDE IN ALL THE OLD TRADITIONS, ALTHOUGH NOT PRACTING THEIR OLD TRADITIONAL WARFARE YOU CAN STILL SEE IT IN HAKA'S AND SPORTS WOOD CARVING IS A HONORABLE TRADITION AND VERY IMPORTANT IN THEIR CULTURE, ITS BELIEFS AND CEREMONY. A GOOD CARVER NOT ONLY GETS RESPECT AS AN ARTIST BUT AS A WARRIOR AND KEEPER OF THE OLD TRADITIONS. MANY GOOD CARVEINGS ARE STILL DONE FOR MAORI MEETING HOUSES AND FOR THE MAORI PEOPLE NOT JUST TO SELL. MAORI ARE ALSO GOOD TRADERS AND BUSINESS MEN SO THEY DO TRY TO MEET THE DEMAND FOR SOUVINEERS ALSO. Attached Images

11th February 2008, 08:02 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Hard chease squeak squeak, how fine it must be to roar .

11th February 2008, 08:34 PM	#11
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THE LIONS AND ELEPHANTS AND THE MOUSE AND IN THE PAST WHEN I STARTED COLLECTING I WAS A MOUSE THEN AS WELL . I DID NOT COLLECT JAPANESE, GERMAN, NATIVE AMERICAN OR PERSIAN BECAUSE THE INTREST OF THE BIG CRITTERS WAS FOCUSED THERE AND THE PRICES TOO HIGH FOR A MOUSE. ETHINOGRAPHIC WEAPONS WERE NOT OF INTREST TO THE LIONS IN THOSE DAYS SO I GOT TO NIBBLE UP PHILIPPINE,AFRICAN,MEXICAN,AND ALL SORTS OF ODD FORIGN ITEMS. IT IS INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT THE MOST FAVORED TYPES OF WEAPONS OF OLD SEEMED TO HAVE TOPPED OUT QUITE A WHILE AGO BUT THE ODDS AND ENDS THAT USED TO BE VERY CHEAP HAVE CLIMED RAPIDLY. EBAY IS IN MANY WAYS A ARTIFICIAL THING TO BASE PRICES ON ITEMS ,AS SOMETIMES THEY GO FOR 10 TIMES TOO MUCH AND SOMETIMES THEY SELL FOR FAR LESS THAN THEY ARE WORTH. I KEEP LOOKING FOR THAT GOOD DEAL BUT THEY ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO GET AS THE JUNGLE IS FULL OF LIONS ,ELEPHANTS, VARIOUS OTHER CRITTERS AND LOTS OF OTHER MICE. THE NICE THING ABOUT A MOUSE HAVING A COLLECTION IS WE CAN GO GET OUR FAVORITE ITEMS AND ROAR!!! AND PRETEND WE ARE LIONS AND BE SAFE THAT THE BIG CRITTERS CAN'T GET US.

12th February 2008, 05:13 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	It is rumoured that Elephants are frighted of mice. Lions are probably far too proud too lazy to consider mice as competition. Mice often unseen do not travel on the main path so they pick up some jolly tasty morsels from time to time on the edge.