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Old 26th March 2005, 08:12 PM   #1
erlikhan
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Default Rapier hilt and gurda blade?

hi. can you please check the pictures and tell what you think about this sword?

Last edited by erlikhan : 27th March 2005 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 26th March 2005, 09:36 PM   #2
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Looks real; certainly a real style; I think it's Swiss/German.
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Old 26th March 2005, 09:51 PM   #3
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I do not think it is caucasian gurda; they imitated the European marking. You got an original stuff: German/Austrian/N.Italian (Styrian).
This is one of the cases when getting the "fake" would be better than the original
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Old 26th March 2005, 09:58 PM   #4
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To me it looks like 17th century west European sabre. Many of them were produced and were in use in those days I think. And the hilt is very "natural" for such sabres too, so I wouldn't call it a rapier hilt. I can't tell what are this markings, maybe they are similiar to those used in Caucas as you suggest, I don't know, I haven't got any book on markings by now around me so I hope that other will help you with this. But I saw something similiar on other sabre (not the same thought but close) which was called Venetian. And I don't mean the markings of Genua "sickle", by the way which we could call similiar too .

This one looks anytique and complete. I think it's quite good. But one thing is worrieng me. I just saw on one of the Italian auction house the edged weapons made in 19th century from so called historical period. Some of them looks very antique on photographs. Anyway, how to belive the photographs from now

Ragards!
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Old 26th March 2005, 10:06 PM   #5
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It's not a caucasian gurda, it looks to me like a real gurda - Genoese blade.
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Old 26th March 2005, 10:18 PM   #6
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Question Genua or not genua ??

Maybe these are Genuese markings, but they're different from those Genuese markings seen on Polish sabres in 17th century. Rivikin, are you sure this are from Genua ??. I can't check this markings now, so I want to be sure that you are sure
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Old 27th March 2005, 12:51 AM   #7
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Well, I'm far too ignorant to be sure of anything, but they look 100% like a caucasian gurda, and gurda is a copy of a genoese mark... However I heard that there used to be very similar marks on venetian swords.
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Old 27th March 2005, 09:34 AM   #8
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Default WARNING

THIS IS AN ACTIVE EBAY AUCTION
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Old 27th March 2005, 10:54 AM   #9
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Angry FALCHION SWORD

I am the owner of this sword and feel very aggrieved that someone is trying to damage my E-Bay auction (which is still running). There is absolutely no doubt that this sword is original and my E-Bay feedback proves that I am an honest dealer. And I am also furious that my pictures (which are copyrighted) have been posted onto this web site without my permission - I am a member of SwordForum.com and this would never be allowed - I suggest that your moderators are not doing their job.
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Old 27th March 2005, 12:04 PM   #10
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I dont know you, why would I wish to damage your auction? I am sure I didnt tell or ever give clue at all it is an ebay auction, and I even cared not to use any single word similar to your description words. I don't see any sign from the replies showing that other members learned its being on ebay from me or they used my topic to sabotage your auction. Pictures.ok. But they were already exhibited on a site which is widely open to public. I just thought to bid for it, and requested opinion thats all. If you really think it damaged your auction, I am sorry for that. I delete the pictures, and moderators can remove the topic completely.
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Old 27th March 2005, 12:18 PM   #11
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Angry FALCHION SWORD

Please delete the pictures as I did not give permission to use them - they are copyrighted and to be featured in a subsequent book. Regarding mentioning that this is a current E-Bay auction, I think that it is obvious which auction site that you are referring to - anybody who is remotely sensible will always look to E-Bay first - there really is no other auction site worth considering. If you had contacted me via E-Bay, I could have discussed the sword with you privately and answered any questions that you had. I would also have been happy to print my answers on this forum. I value my reputation on E-Bay and have spent many years establishing it.
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Old 27th March 2005, 12:49 PM   #12
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I know our new member Swordsmith 4 years now and I know he is a very trusty person. I am very disappointed that he forced to enter in this forum in such situation. I think that the majority of us here didnít want such situation. Moderators could not know in advance for the breaking of the rules.

We can turn all this to a positive value if Swordsmith stay in this forum and help us with his great knowledge on edged weapons. So I warmly welcome him.
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Old 27th March 2005, 01:32 PM   #13
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Though I don't know what claims are being made in the selling (presumeably that it is Causcasian), it doesn't seem to me that anything bad or detracting has been said about this sword? Why so concerned? There's such a big deal over where it comes from? Someone please tell me what don't I know? Has reference to an auction been editted out? I don't see any? I certainly join in assuring Swordsmith of no ill intent; his dispute, it seems to me, can at most only be with Erlikhan, and only over the copyright on the photos, which Erlikhan didn't use commercially, so aside from making him cease and desist (done) I think that's all the recourse there is. Why so disturbed?
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Old 27th March 2005, 02:25 PM   #14
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Why are auction sales not open to free market conditions like any other product.Potential buyers can discuss any goods among other potential buyers.One would not buy many products without reading a review or other consumer guide,if that guide did not recommend the goods then is that not just hard cheese?In theory even capitalism works.Tim

Last edited by Tim Simmons : 27th March 2005 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 27th March 2005, 02:42 PM   #15
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There is a rule in this forum. We donít discuss open auctions. I believe it is a fair rule so this forum will stay away of sellers intentions and bidders believes. We all learn here and I personally donít like to read promotions or lies on a blade for financial reasons.

No matter if this rule is good or bad, it gives to all of us the same status against Ebay auctions. A lot of times, before I bid, I wished I had the opinions of some experts we have here but I didnít ever think to brake the rule.

In this situation someone wanted the advantage against other bidders. He knew that it is not allowed to discuss open auctions, so he tried a ďwindowĒ of the rule. I am not a lawyer to say if this is rule breaking or not. But I donít find it gentlemanlike.
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Old 27th March 2005, 04:31 PM   #16
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1. Concerning copyrights - without any permission, the images can be used for editorial (news) purposes - which obviously includes any discussions on this site (with some limitations).

2. There is a rule of not discussing active ebay auctions - the rule I personally greatly dislike, and the reason is that while I may be proficient enough in kindjals so I usually don't worry about buying on ebay (so if I would stick to kindjals I would love this rule), but I really like european swords, and unfortunately big and expensive books I have teach you nothing when it comes to how to distinguish fakes etc.

The results is that I have to pay for my education through series of disappointment.

Sincerely yours,

Kirill Rivkin
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Old 27th March 2005, 04:35 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swordsmith
I am the owner of this sword and feel very aggrieved that someone is trying to damage my E-Bay auction (which is still running). There is absolutely no doubt that this sword is original and my E-Bay feedback proves that I am an honest dealer. And I am also furious that my pictures (which are copyrighted) have been posted onto this web site without my permission


First, swordsmith, welcome to the forum. I haven't seen anyone in this thread trying to damage your auction, or suggest that you were not an honest dealer. That is your interpretation, and for that I am sorry. Your photos were published on a public website, and posted here for discussion, not profit. In other words, fair use. Had you a concern, my preference would have been for you to contact myself or the other staff here and asked us to remove them.

Quote:
- I am a member of SwordForum.com and this would never be allowed -


I notice active auction links and photos posted on SFI regularly. If anything, our policy is more strict.

Quote:
I suggest that your moderators are not doing their job.


Really? How so? Would you like us to monitor every eBay auction to cross-reference it with every thread on this forum?

I suggest you read the rules of this forum, and if you have a concern, feel free to contact the Staff.

Last edited by Andrew : 27th March 2005 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 27th March 2005, 04:56 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannis
There is a rule in this forum. We donít discuss open auctions. I believe it is a fair rule so this forum will stay away of sellers intentions and bidders believes. We all learn here and I personally donít like to read promotions or lies on a blade for financial reasons.

No matter if this rule is good or bad, it gives to all of us the same status against Ebay auctions. A lot of times, before I bid, I wished I had the opinions of some experts we have here but I didnít ever think to brake the rule.

In this situation someone wanted the advantage against other bidders. He knew that it is not allowed to discuss open auctions, so he tried a ďwindowĒ of the rule. I am not a lawyer to say if this is rule breaking or not. But I donít find it gentlemanlike.


I have no idea what erlikan's intent was in posting those photos, and I doubt you do either, Yannis. Further, I submit that leveling accusations at erlikan about his intent is not "gentlemanlike", either, particularly in light of his immediate action to remove the offending photos and contrite apology.

I can assure you erlikan was not in violation of any current rule or policy of this forum.

Unfortunately, I cannot assure you those rules will remain the same in the wake of this thread.
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Old 27th March 2005, 05:03 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivkin
2. There is a rule of not discussing active ebay auctions - the rule I personally greatly dislike, and the reason is that while I may be proficient enough in kindjals so I usually don't worry about buying on ebay (so if I would stick to kindjals I would love this rule), but I really like european swords, and unfortunately big and expensive books I have teach you nothing when it comes to how to distinguish fakes etc.


This very thread illustrates quite well why we have such a rule.

Quote:
The results is that I have to pay for my education through series of disappointment.


And so do we all. The upside is that you are free to discuss closed auctions and learn after the fact.
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Old 27th March 2005, 05:59 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
I have no idea what erlikan's intent was in posting those photos, and I doubt you do either, Yannis. Further, I submit that leveling accusations at erlikan about his intent is not "gentlemanlike",


Andrew read his post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by erlikhan
I just thought to bid for it, and requested opinion thats all.


I donít accuse anyone. I think that I can read. And I still find it improper.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
I can assure you erlikan was not in violation of any current rule or policy of this forum.


So next time I want to learn about an open auction I just have to copy the photos, eh? Thank you, I will do that.
Rivkin this is the solution.
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Old 27th March 2005, 07:09 PM   #21
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Maybe it's my English, and maybe I don't understand every nuance in the discussion, but if I do remember well, other threads were closed just after it came to light they are about continuing auction.

If my words "Anyway, how to belive the photographs from now" (I hope not) were understood as a warning, I want to say they're not - it's only general thought and I was thinking about another obcjects actually. If so - I'm sorry. Anyway rules are rules but I don't want to decide instead of moderators - power is in your hands gentlemen we are only the users

Regards!
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Old 27th March 2005, 07:15 PM   #22
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Swordsmith, I already deleted them .I didnt refer any auction at all. I even didnt say it was offered to me by someone. I dont think this forum is a service of ebay where every item should refer to ebay or I dont think ebay is the only market of weapons . I publish many items here and most are not acquired from ebay.
Yannis, I and you dont like each other, everybody know this, and you try to use the situation personally.Childish .It is obvious even from the time of your message and the owner of the sword else than your continuing offense. It is ok, no problem. But if you slander me crazily without any proof to try to take advantage against other bidders (where I am even not a bidder ), in reverse I can accuse you that you expect profit from the auction and become disturbed from people critizising the item or you trying to make adversitement of the item by keeping active a topic, which's existence annoys you as far as you've said . Mine would not be more crazy than your comment.
As I said, if it is against forum rules and so unethical, moderators can remove the topic completely or lock it to prevent it from being used for negative or positive purposes about an ongoing auction.
regards

Last edited by erlikhan : 27th March 2005 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 27th March 2005, 07:19 PM   #23
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Old 27th March 2005, 10:49 PM   #24
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Erlikhan's initial post was well within forum guidelines and rules .

Unfortunately we may now have to change those rules .

I have no patience for animosity between the two of you ; quite frankly I find it childish when two grown men snipe at each other like this .
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Old 28th March 2005, 01:00 AM   #25
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I have had my share of silly errors, posting and discussing active e-bay auctions. Andrew slapped my wrist several times and I try to be more cautious .
I can see some wisdom in the current rule of not discussing active auctions although, as Rivkin says, it is often inconvenient. I'd love to have this rule changed too, but... Andrew is a lawyer and I am not.
I am sorry for barging into this thread, I did not know that it was an active auction. In my defence, and in defence of everybody else here, no bad things were said about the item.
BTW, Andrew is a malpractice lawyer (no slur intended, even though I am a physician.....), but Mark is an itellectual property one and is eminently qualified to explain to us why do we have this rule.
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Old 28th March 2005, 01:27 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannis
Andrew read his post:


I read it, and my prior comment stands.

Quote:
I donít accuse anyone. I think that I can read. And I still find it improper.


Yes, you did accuse someone. Yes, you can read. You also allow your personal issues and animosities color your participation in this forum. I suggest you stop.

Quote:
So next time I want to learn about an open auction I just have to copy the photos, eh? Thank you, I will do that.
Rivkin this is the solution.


As a result of your conduct on this very thread, the rule prohibiting discussion of active eBay auctions will now be expanded. It was our hope that "scholarly" discussion of an item, albeit in a ficticious vacuum would be possible.

Apparantly not.
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Old 28th March 2005, 01:31 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
And so do we all. The upside is that you are free to discuss closed auctions and learn after the fact.


But not everyone is as cheap as me !
To be honest I am greatly disappointed by the direction this thread have taken, especially since no "badmouthing" of the blade was done [EDITED]

Last edited by Andrew : 28th March 2005 at 01:46 AM. Reason: inflamatory content
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Old 28th March 2005, 01:34 AM   #28
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I'm going to lock this thread now until further notice .
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Old 28th March 2005, 01:35 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
I have had my share of silly errors, posting and discussing active e-bay auctions. Andrew slapped my wrist several times and I try to be more cautious .
I can see some wisdom in the current rule of not discussing active auctions although, as Rivkin says, it is often inconvenient. I'd love to have this rule changed too, but... Andrew is a lawyer and I am not.
I am sorry for barging into this thread, I did not know that it was an active auction. In my defence, and in defence of everybody else here, no bad things were said about the item.
BTW, Andrew is a malpractice lawyer (no slur intended, even though I am a physician.....), but Mark is an itellectual property one and is eminently qualified to explain to us why do we have this rule.


I've explained this rule ad nauseum. It doesn't take a law degree to explain it, let alone understand it, Ariel.
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Old 28th March 2005, 01:38 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erlikhan
Swordsmith, I already deleted them .I didnt refer any auction at all. I even didnt say it was offered to me by someone. I dont think this forum is a service of ebay where every item should refer to ebay or I dont think ebay is the only market of weapons . I publish many items here and most are not acquired from ebay.
Yannis, I and you dont like each other, everybody know this, and you try to use the situation personally.Childish .It is obvious even from the time of your message and the owner of the sword else than your continuing offense. It is ok, no problem. But if you slander me crazily without any proof to try to take advantage against other bidders (where I am even not a bidder ), in reverse I can accuse you that you expect profit from the auction and become disturbed from people critizising the item or you trying to make adversitement of the item by keeping active a topic, which's existence annoys you as far as you've said . Mine would not be more crazy than your comment.
As I said, if it is against forum rules and so unethical, moderators can remove the topic completely or lock it to prevent it from being used for negative or positive purposes about an ongoing auction.
regards


Erlikhan, as I've mentioned before, there is an "ignore" feature to the forum software. I, again, suggest you and Yannis explore it.
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