yataghan but confused of origin and date

mavi1970 · 10th March 2005, 02:53 PM

Hi, first I would like to thank this forum, its a very informative place that I just happened to find and I am very pleased. I have this yataghan but I do not know what its origin is, the date is stamped on it but it might be a reproduction, but I do not know. It does have the scabbard which is of leather and the total length of the sword is 31 inches roughly with the blade being 25 and the handle 5 inche. overall its in really good condition, and the hilt is also of a dark horn. any and all help in this yataghan would be appreciated, thanks again.

mavi1970 · 10th March 2005, 03:09 PM

here are some additional pictures. thanks

ariel · 10th March 2005, 04:19 PM

I think that the blade and the brass parts are real. The date (1227) corresponds to 1812 Gregorian. The brass parts seem to be of Balkan tradition, but this is debatable. Would be interesting to know whether the inscription makes much sense.
I am quite uncomfortable with the horn handle: it is very peculiar in form, crude in execution and generally the ugliest I've ever seen. I think it is a newly-made replacement executed by a person with no great knowledge of traditional Yataghan handles. The scabbard seems to be a replacement, although brass throat might have been recycled.

Of interest,the same seller just sold another one with the same date executed in a very similar style/handwriting and with similar scabbard. A more "military" model. I am puzzled by the similarities between the two examples: they look like coming from the same "shop".
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting

mavi1970 · 10th March 2005, 04:47 PM

thanks for your quick response, so the long and short of it is, i bought a reproduction, hacked together sword. hmmm well i will see what the item looks like when i get it. so any residual value of this item is quite low.

derek · 10th March 2005, 05:09 PM

Hi Mavil,

Don't assume that this means you have a "reproduction". This could be a reasonably old blade that has been modified with various "enhancements" over time. It could be that the original scabbard rotted and was replaced, and that the grips were broken from use. This is very common and a part of a weapon's story. Take heart, man.

-d

TVV · 10th March 2005, 05:30 PM

I am sorry to say this, but there are quite a few modern reproductions of yataghans made nowadays in Bulgaria, which have similar black horn hilts and brass fittings. Often the bladesmiths who produce them create them according to their own taste without much regard to authentic styles. As the seller is one who sells antiques dug in Bulgaria, there is a possibility that you have an authentic blade that has been given to one of those contemporary bladesmiths, who rehilted it and created a scabbard for it. Here are pictures of a modern yataghan/sheppard's knife I have, in order to show you some similarities:

Of course, I can be wrong, and even if I am right, this does not mean that you need to be unhappy with this yataghan. After all, the blade appears to be authentic and quite nice, and if you do not like the hilt and the scabbard, you can easily get it rehilted in a more traditional manner. Actually, I would be more than happy to have this yataghan for its blade, and if you acquired it because you liked it for one reason or another, then the question about value is irrelevant.

mavi1970 · 10th March 2005, 06:36 PM

thanks for your help and informative knowledge. You are right in your deductions about using old and mixing it with new, and it does make sense, it could be just that these items were added along the life of the sword, but in the end the most important part of the sword, the blade, is original. any information on the preserving these items with oil etc, i tried to search for it but could not find any information. thanks again

ariel · 10th March 2005, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavi1970

thanks for your quick response, so the long and short of it is, i bought a reproduction, hacked together sword. hmmm well i will see what the item looks like when i get it. so any residual value of this item is quite low.

I am sorry if my note depressed you: I did not mean it.
The blade is real, no doubt at all. Many truly old swords had their parts fixed, modified, replaced etc in the course of their rather eventful lives.
The main drift of my note was to draw attention to a rather new (for me, at least!) phenomenon: a possible existence of a Bulgarian "antique fixing shops". Apparently, it was a known fact....
Overall, you did not overpay much (if at all), and should be very content with your acquisition. Even if you got screwed by an unscrupulous seller.... well... I do not think there is a single Forumite here who never had this miserable experience.
Join the club, in all senses of the word!
And, welcome to the Forum!

mavi1970 · 10th March 2005, 08:18 PM

thanks for your response ariel, i am not discouraged in collecting not in the least. but as you said, of these "shops" in bulgaria do tarnish the market, but in the end they do bring old pieces back to life, in one form or another. in the coming days i will also post other items which i have had for quite a while, one is authentic and let the experts take a look at. you are close by also, i am just on the other side of port huron, michigan in canada

Jens Nordlunde · 10th March 2005, 09:33 PM

To me it looks as the same yatagan http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=48782

TVV · 10th March 2005, 09:56 PM

Well, I am afraid the antique fixing shops in my country are more than just one, but they exist in all countries all over the world. EBay, a great help to collectors on a budget such as myself, has provided a huge boost to crooks from everywhere. Those in Bulgaria are also taking advantage of the situation, but generally, the proportion of dishonest dealers in Bulgaria is not by the least bit larger than that in Russia, Turkey, or the US for example. I would not blame the bladesmith, who fixed the yataghan and revived an old blade, but the intermediaries, who exported the piece outside of Bulgaria in violation of Bulgarian laws (interestingly, all these items dug/found in Bulgaria and offered on eBay are located in either Vegas or Germany or both at the same time) and then marketed it on eBay as an authentic piece.
Joe (I saw your name from SFI), it will be interesting to see what the inscription on the blade means. Once you get the yataghan you will be able tot ake better pics of it, and someone should be able to translate it.

ariel · 11th March 2005, 04:46 AM

No doubt, there are plenty of people who want to make a quick buck in any country.
I dealt with a couple of sellers from Bulgaria and was extremely impressed with their honesty and quality of service. One of them (I do not want to mention his name on the Forum) is almost ridiculously obsessive in listing every real or imaginary deficiency and grossly exaggerating the shortcomings of his items. Then, when the item arrives, it looks 100 times better than the description.
I would deal with him any time.
By the way, I did not know that there were restriction on exporting old weapons from Bulgaria. Can you be more specific?

tom hyle · 11th March 2005, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

To me it looks as the same yatagan http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=48782

Yeah, but that went nowhere...........

Conogre · 11th March 2005, 01:59 PM

Sure it did...it IS the same yatagan.
I have to agree about the not being much overpriced, if at all and the fact that it's a newer hilt and scabbard, as there's a good chance that the old ones were completely or nearly so rotted away, or else they'd have simply left it as it was.
It IS unfortunate that they weren't redone in an authentic style though, with so many patterns from that region available and likewise I see the point about the date being suspicious, but even here it looks to be somewhere in the general area and not several hyndred years off as I would expect if they were trying to make a killing.
Now that you mentioned Vegas and Germany that does explain the 2,000 year old sax with the human tibia hilt that was in such good shape (the tibia, not the blade **grin**)...one could almost say that someone gave an arm and a leg for THAT knife.
Mike

TVV · 11th March 2005, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

By the way, I did not know that there were restriction on exporting old weapons from Bulgaria. Can you be more specific?

Well, the general law is that items older than 1850 are a considered "national cultural monuments" (yes, this is the right translation) and are not to be exported. The law is unfortunately so vaguely stated that in its broadest interpretation could include even people. I would not worry too much about ethnographic weapons, but antiquities are deffinitely prohibited to be exported. This is more of a problem to the exporters, not the collectors. I do not think you need to worry about anything you have purchased from eBay.
Conogre: yes, I remember the exact piece you are referring to and if I remember correctly, it was marketed not as a sax but as a mahaira. With items that old it is too hard to be able to tell authenticity just from a picture, and I avoid them, even if they look very tempting.

mavi1970 · 22nd March 2005, 04:36 PM

well, i received the sword finally, and it is a quite bad reproduction as you can get. people be warry of this ebay seller "vegas and germany", the sheath has been distressed with a chemical so that the "new stained" wood and leather would look old. and the inscription on the blade is painted on with yellow paint, looked a lot better in pictures. the blade also looks new and not a true original. the brass work is also quite poor and a novice job. i guess this one wont be hung up on my wall with pride. ahaha. just a warning out to others to be carefull.

thanks for your help

TVV · 22nd March 2005, 05:48 PM

Thanks for warning us, it appears that this seller, unfortunatelly, is as a complete a crook as one can get. I am really sorry about what happened to you. The worst part of all is that this particular seller is still selling forgeries on eBay, usually for a very high price (he sold a similar yataghan just a few days ago for over $300). I do not think that even if we notify eBay, they will do anything, as they make their profits from the sellers (that is why the Chinese are still there and nobody does anything to stop auctions starting at $.99 with S&H of $100). It is just too bad.

10th March 2005, 02:53 PM	#1
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	yataghan but confused of origin and date Hi, first I would like to thank this forum, its a very informative place that I just happened to find and I am very pleased. I have this yataghan but I do not know what its origin is, the date is stamped on it but it might be a reproduction, but I do not know. It does have the scabbard which is of leather and the total length of the sword is 31 inches roughly with the blade being 25 and the handle 5 inche. overall its in really good condition, and the hilt is also of a dark horn. any and all help in this yataghan would be appreciated, thanks again. Attached Images

10th March 2005, 03:09 PM	#2
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	additional pictures here are some additional pictures. thanks Attached Images

10th March 2005, 04:19 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think that the blade and the brass parts are real. The date (1227) corresponds to 1812 Gregorian. The brass parts seem to be of Balkan tradition, but this is debatable. Would be interesting to know whether the inscription makes much sense. I am quite uncomfortable with the horn handle: it is very peculiar in form, crude in execution and generally the ugliest I've ever seen. I think it is a newly-made replacement executed by a person with no great knowledge of traditional Yataghan handles. The scabbard seems to be a replacement, although brass throat might have been recycled. Of interest,the same seller just sold another one with the same date executed in a very similar style/handwriting and with similar scabbard. A more "military" model. I am puzzled by the similarities between the two examples: they look like coming from the same "shop". http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ayphotohosting Last edited by ariel; 10th March 2005 at 04:31 PM.

10th March 2005, 04:47 PM	#4
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	thanks for your quick response, so the long and short of it is, i bought a reproduction, hacked together sword. hmmm well i will see what the item looks like when i get it. so any residual value of this item is quite low.

10th March 2005, 05:09 PM	#5
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Hi Mavil, Don't assume that this means you have a "reproduction". This could be a reasonably old blade that has been modified with various "enhancements" over time. It could be that the original scabbard rotted and was replaced, and that the grips were broken from use. This is very common and a part of a weapon's story. Take heart, man. -d

10th March 2005, 05:30 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,599	I am sorry to say this, but there are quite a few modern reproductions of yataghans made nowadays in Bulgaria, which have similar black horn hilts and brass fittings. Often the bladesmiths who produce them create them according to their own taste without much regard to authentic styles. As the seller is one who sells antiques dug in Bulgaria, there is a possibility that you have an authentic blade that has been given to one of those contemporary bladesmiths, who rehilted it and created a scabbard for it. Here are pictures of a modern yataghan/sheppard's knife I have, in order to show you some similarities: Of course, I can be wrong, and even if I am right, this does not mean that you need to be unhappy with this yataghan. After all, the blade appears to be authentic and quite nice, and if you do not like the hilt and the scabbard, you can easily get it rehilted in a more traditional manner. Actually, I would be more than happy to have this yataghan for its blade, and if you acquired it because you liked it for one reason or another, then the question about value is irrelevant.

10th March 2005, 06:36 PM	#7
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	thanks for your help and informative knowledge. You are right in your deductions about using old and mixing it with new, and it does make sense, it could be just that these items were added along the life of the sword, but in the end the most important part of the sword, the blade, is original. any information on the preserving these items with oil etc, i tried to search for it but could not find any information. thanks again

10th March 2005, 08:18 PM	#9
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	thanks for your response ariel, i am not discouraged in collecting not in the least. but as you said, of these "shops" in bulgaria do tarnish the market, but in the end they do bring old pieces back to life, in one form or another. in the coming days i will also post other items which i have had for quite a while, one is authentic and let the experts take a look at. you are close by also, i am just on the other side of port huron, michigan in canada

10th March 2005, 09:33 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	To me it looks as the same yatagan http://forums.swordforum.com/showthr...threadid=48782

10th March 2005, 09:56 PM	#11
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,599	Well, I am afraid the antique fixing shops in my country are more than just one, but they exist in all countries all over the world. EBay, a great help to collectors on a budget such as myself, has provided a huge boost to crooks from everywhere. Those in Bulgaria are also taking advantage of the situation, but generally, the proportion of dishonest dealers in Bulgaria is not by the least bit larger than that in Russia, Turkey, or the US for example. I would not blame the bladesmith, who fixed the yataghan and revived an old blade, but the intermediaries, who exported the piece outside of Bulgaria in violation of Bulgarian laws (interestingly, all these items dug/found in Bulgaria and offered on eBay are located in either Vegas or Germany or both at the same time) and then marketed it on eBay as an authentic piece. Joe (I saw your name from SFI), it will be interesting to see what the inscription on the blade means. Once you get the yataghan you will be able tot ake better pics of it, and someone should be able to translate it.

11th March 2005, 04:46 AM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No doubt, there are plenty of people who want to make a quick buck in any country. I dealt with a couple of sellers from Bulgaria and was extremely impressed with their honesty and quality of service. One of them (I do not want to mention his name on the Forum) is almost ridiculously obsessive in listing every real or imaginary deficiency and grossly exaggerating the shortcomings of his items. Then, when the item arrives, it looks 100 times better than the description. I would deal with him any time. By the way, I did not know that there were restriction on exporting old weapons from Bulgaria. Can you be more specific?

11th March 2005, 01:59 PM	#14
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Sure it did...it IS the same yatagan. I have to agree about the not being much overpriced, if at all and the fact that it's a newer hilt and scabbard, as there's a good chance that the old ones were completely or nearly so rotted away, or else they'd have simply left it as it was. It IS unfortunate that they weren't redone in an authentic style though, with so many patterns from that region available and likewise I see the point about the date being suspicious, but even here it looks to be somewhere in the general area and not several hyndred years off as I would expect if they were trying to make a killing. Now that you mentioned Vegas and Germany that does explain the 2,000 year old sax with the human tibia hilt that was in such good shape (the tibia, not the blade grin)...one could almost say that someone gave an arm and a leg for THAT knife. Mike

22nd March 2005, 04:36 PM	#16
mavi1970 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada Posts: 90	well, i received the sword finally, and it is a quite bad reproduction as you can get. people be warry of this ebay seller "vegas and germany", the sheath has been distressed with a chemical so that the "new stained" wood and leather would look old. and the inscription on the blade is painted on with yellow paint, looked a lot better in pictures. the blade also looks new and not a true original. the brass work is also quite poor and a novice job. i guess this one wont be hung up on my wall with pride. ahaha. just a warning out to others to be carefull. thanks for your help

22nd March 2005, 05:48 PM	#17
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,599	Thanks for warning us, it appears that this seller, unfortunatelly, is as a complete a crook as one can get. I am really sorry about what happened to you. The worst part of all is that this particular seller is still selling forgeries on eBay, usually for a very high price (he sold a similar yataghan just a few days ago for over $300). I do not think that even if we notify eBay, they will do anything, as they make their profits from the sellers (that is why the Chinese are still there and nobody does anything to stop auctions starting at $.99 with S&H of $100). It is just too bad.