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Old 24th September 2006, 08:47 PM   #31
A. G. Maisey
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Yes, to me, these three wrongkos look to have the same form.

Alam Shah`s and Erik`s examples look to have Jogja style pendoks.

The pendok on mine could be interpreted as Madura, or could be interpreted as generic Javanese.

I don`t think there is any doubt that the carving on my example is Madurese, and this carving is fairly old. The wrongko itself was bought in Aeng Tong-Tong, and was very dirty when purchased.

Because of where it was purchased, the person from whom it was purchased, and the condition when purchased, along with the unmistakably Madurese carving, I have always been inclined to accept this as another variation in Madura style, however, in light of these other two examples, maybe it is not.

At this point, my inclination is pend the Madura attribution and begin looking at old examples of known origin and provenance, which means pieces in old European collections.

North Coast Jawa has been suggested.
In my (20th century) experience, there is considerable overlap between North Coast Jawa, East Jawa, and Madura---and again between East Jawa and West Bali.

I have in mind a North Coast type of wrongko that does in fact have a rather squarish profile. Perhaps a closer look at this type may suggest something.

This presentation of three examples has highlighted one of the problems of identifying origin of all parts which go to make a complete keris. As soon as we move away from the influence of a Kraton, it appears that what we often find is a mix and match situation, and this mixing and matching is not exclusive to dealers. I recently had the opportunity to provide an opinion on an old keris of known point of collection , and collected in the early 1940's.It had been the keris of a village headman. It was a mixture of Bugis, Palembang, home-made repairs and substitutions, and a wrongko atasan that could have been from any one of many places. It was collected in Sumatra.

With keris, things do not always follow textbook examples.
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Old 27th September 2006, 10:03 PM   #32
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Here are a few more Madura wrongkos.
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Old 27th September 2006, 10:28 PM   #33
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And a few more.
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Old 2nd October 2006, 12:43 PM   #34
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The variety and beauty of these pieces are truly a statement as to the artistic talent of the Madurese carvers, all of the Madura wrongko in this thread express superb quality. I personally thank you all for participating.

However, there is one style of wrongko that I have been waiting to appear, as I do not have an example of my own, I am attaching photos with references to the books from which they are "lifted". Sorry about the poor quality of the photos, but they reflect the poor quality of the photo in the books.

This style is quite often being mistook as being from Bali, and advertised as such. But there are indeed differences in the details of the carving. Some authors call it as being from East Jawa or Jawa Timur others strictly Maduran.

So what is it East Jawa, Madura or a combination?
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Old 2nd October 2006, 09:29 PM   #35
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Erik, this is exactly the same style as your topengan posted on 18 Sept.

Yes, the mask on the ones you have just posted is larger, but this is only due to the fact that your example is a more recent one, and consequently more refined. The copied photos you have just posted are older, the topengan was probably added to the wrongko later, and made to fit: your own example was constructed as an original entity.

In fact, I do have one similar to the ones you have just posted. I`ll photo it and post pics when I get a chance.Look at the wrongko itself:- it is exactly the same in your example, and in the ones you have just posted. The difference is only that in these older ones the topengan is not as neatly mated to the wrongko, but thrown together, almost as an after thought.

Have a look at the bright yellow wrongko with no pendok , in my first post of images. This is a good grass-roots example of this wrongko style. This is an old, old wrongko. It is one of the first keris I ever owned, and I have had it for about 50 years. When I bought it the atasan was in three pieces, the gandar had massive holes in it, and it was suffering from dry rot. What you see in the picture I posted is a total restoration.

As to where they originated.

In 1835 Cakra Adiningrat VIII of Madura gifted a very fine example of one of these keris to King William I of The Netherlands. I feel it is extremely unlikely that a Madurese ruler would present a Balinese keris to the sovereign who was effectively his overlord.

The Balinese style of dress that is found in Madura has a legend attached to it. Broadly, it is this:- a ruler from Bali set out invade Suminep. He reached the coast near Suminep with his troops, and began to march towards Suminep. The Suminep ruler heard of his coming, circled around behind him, smashed the boats, then encircled the Balinese invader.The ruler of Suminep gave the Balinese the option of swearing allegiance to him, and recieving land and a local woman as wife, or not swearing allegiance to him, and dying. The smart money took the oath and settled down as citizens of Suminep.These Balinese/Madurese retained their keris dress.

Over the years this dress has retained, or maybe developed very, very minor variations to the Balinese dress we see in Bali, generally it is very , very slightly more "compressed", and has a "fatter" appearance.
In fact, the keris presented to William I has a wrongko that is almost to Balinese proportions, but it is betrayed by the handle, which has the proportions of the Bali/Madura style, and it does not carry a pendok of Balinese style, manufacture, or proportion.

On all these Bali/Madura topengans I have yet to see a single one that has a pendok of Balinese proportions. All I have ever seen have pendoks with the proportions of a Jawa/Madura keris. However, I think it reasonable to assume that if people of Balinese origin used this style of keris dress in Madura, it probably had an original model back in Bali, where they came from.Be this as it may, I have yet to see a keris of this style with a Balinese pendok, or with a blade that is inarguably Balinese.

Based upon my personal observations, I am of the opinion that this form of dress is a style that was used by people of Balinese origin, living in Madura. I can find no reason to give it an East Javanese attribution, and although a similar style may have existed in Bali, I have yet to see this style of dress mated with gandar and blade of definite Balinese origin.
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Old 3rd October 2006, 02:54 AM   #36
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Granted, at first look they are exactly the same style as my post of Sept. 18th and Alan's on Sept. 17th.

Now, lets take off the topengan off all the wrongko's and imagine just the form of the wrongko, this is where I see a slight detail in the format to which they are carved, it may not have any importance at all, but look closely and you will find the left side of the wrongko when looked at from the front, appear to have less round appearance in the first three photos. And more round appearance in the last two photos.

I tried to illustrate this by drawing a straight line on the left in the photos, I may very well be wrong but I see a distinct difference in the form of the wrongko on the left side. It may be minute but then again the most insignificant difference in the world of Keris may have major implications.

Maybe they are just minor variations, or perhaps even optical illusions from being on a slight angle while being photographed, I just didn't want to ignore the difference.
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Old 3rd October 2006, 08:03 AM   #37
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Yes, I understand what you are saying Erik, but I personally think that what we are looking at can be accounted for by craftsman's variation within the same style---or by age.

For instance, that one of mine , as I mentioned, was a complete restoration, and it was very, very sad before I did it. I was probably only 18 or 19 when I restored that wrongko, and I had absolutely no idea of the importance of minor angle variations or contours. All I wanted to do was repair it and make it look OK. I may have altered any number of miniscule details on this wrongko when I sanded it down.

Along the same line of argument:- that one of yours is pure, clean, crisp and immaculate. Absolutely pristine condition. What might it lkook like if it had been repolished a few times, as is fairly usual with an old wrongko that has been given good use.

The one that was gifted to King William is actually slightly elongated, a bit like a Bali atasan, but the handle with it has the compressed "fat" look of the Bali/Madura handle.But that wrongko dates from nearly 200 years ago. Maybe the style we see now is how these developed in an alien environment.

There is no doubt at all that a very minor detail in a wrongko, a handle, or a blade can alter the name by which something should be known, but in respect of these Bali/Madura wrongkos, I personally am quite satisfied that they are all the same type, and the minor differences that we see are just variations in the hand of the carver, slight variations due to the period when carved, or even due to wear.
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Old 3rd October 2006, 08:17 AM   #38
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Thanks for the interesting reading.
The "Tammens" Topengan is in my collection so I have enclosed two pictures of it, from the front and from the back. Additional pictures of it could be found in my gallery at
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/module...=view_album.php

I am a bit surprised on Alan's statement that:

"Based upon my personal observations, I am of the opinion that this form of dress is a style that was used by people of Balinese origin, living in Madura. I can find no reason to give it an East Javanese attribution, and although a similar style may have existed in Bali, I have yet to see this style of dress mated with gandar and blade of definite Balinese origin."

This is very new to me, that's one of the reasons I enjoy this forum, and I would appreciate if Alan could develop this statement so I can understand it better?

In Karsten Sejr-Jensen's book, Den indonesiske Kris, there are three Topengan.
The first one is clearly Maduran, page 137 fig. 94, with a Maduran Ladrang sheath and a Maduran blade.
The second looks Balinese, page 141 fig. 96, with a Balinese Gayaman sheath and Balinese blade.
The third one also looks Balinese, page 142 fig. 97, with a Balinese Gayaman sheath and Balinese blade.

In the Staatliches Museum für Völkerkunde in Dresden there is an East Javanese Keris Topengan with Nyamba hilt and same kind of Gayaman sheath as mine.

In Tropen there are two Keris Topengan described as Balinese, Gayaman sheaths and on the second one you can see its blade, that could be found in their collection database.

http://collectie.tropenmuseum.nl/ba...e=&culturenode=

and

http://collectie.tropenmuseum.nl/ba...e=&culturenode=

Not having a fraction of Alan's knowledge and experience of Keris myself I am curious on his views if these Keris are in fact all of Bali-Maduranese origin?
Or maybe they were produced in Bali, or East Java, and then later have had the Topengan attached to the sheath in Madura?
Do you think my Keris isn't of East Javanese origin but Maduranese and why?

Also I have noticed that none of the Keris above has the typical Balinese "ring" mendak and selut?
But I don't have the knowledge to see if the mendak and selut all are Maduran variations or an older Balinese or East Javanese style?

Michael
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Last edited by VVV : 3rd October 2006 at 11:38 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old 3rd October 2006, 12:48 PM   #39
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ANaga Sasra
VVV

For me your last pictures are all a combination of different style.
The handles are Bali style... also sarongs could be Bali style. Different is the pendok with kala: in my opinion it is from central or east jawa (it coud derive from kala majapahit terracotta/stones pattern).

I enclose some other photos just for more confusion:
the first is from Bezemer book "platenatlas" : Bali
The second is from P. Holstein book tav. XLIII : Bali or Madura
The third is from G. Vianello book : Surakarta
The last is from my collection: Yogja
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Old 3rd October 2006, 10:52 PM   #40
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Goodness gracious me!

What a flood of topengans.

I thank you both, VVV, and Marco for letting us see these images. I don`t think I have seen any of them.

Quote:-
I am a bit surprised on Alan's statement that:

"Based upon my personal observations, I am of the opinion that this form of dress is a style that was used by people of Balinese origin, living in Madura. I can find no reason to give it an East Javanese attribution, and although a similar style may have existed in Bali, I have yet to see this style of dress mated with gandar and blade of definite Balinese origin."


You should not be surprised, VVV.
I have stated an opinion, and that opinion is based upon what I have seen and heard to the present time.

It does not mean that it is necessarily incontrovertable fact, it does mean that it is my opinion in accordance with the present level of my knowledge.

This opinion can change at any time if I come into possession of new knowledge that adds to my present knowledge.

So let us look at these images and see if there is something there to alter my opinion.

Firstly, VVV's Tammens keris.
If I were to see the handle of this keris in isolation, I would classify it as Bali/Madura. The form and proportions do not look to my eye like a Balinese handle.
The blade does not appear to be Balinese.
The pendok appears to have been formed on a sanglon.I have yet to see an old Balinese pendok that has been made as a tube; normally they are made like a blewah pendok, and the face of the gandar covered with a slorok, then the pendok and slorok are glued in place with shellac or damar.Additionally, the pendok has a lis (collar), which is a very common feature on a Madura pendok, and something I have not yet seen on an old Bali pendok.
The uwer is similar to a Balinese uwer, but has a stem, probably made necessary to allow the handle to clear the topengan; the upper plate on the stem was probably necessary to keep the whole thing together.
I do not know what Mr. Tammens classified this keris as, but to me, this is a Bali/Madura keris. It is not pure Bali.

The first Tropen keris I really cannot see sufficient of to comment on.

However, I would be looking at the same indicators as I looked at with the Tammens keris:- blade origin, pendok design and fabrication, proportion of handle, uwer.Although I cannot see any detail in this picture, the overall form of the pendok does look to be more Balinese, and the slight squareness of the foot of the pendok could indicate construction in a Balinese manner.

The second Tropen keris does look to have a Balinese blade, however, it appears to have a Madura mendak. Again I cannot see sufficient detail, and again the pendok does seem to have a slightly more Balinese feel to it, but really, a little on the slim side for pure Bali.

A question in respect of these two keris:- does the Tropen have documentation for these two keris? Collected by whom, when, and where?

Coming back to the Tammens keris, VVV has posed the question as to whether it is East Javanese or Madurese.

Madura is a part of East Jawa. In the present day it is administratively a part of East Jawa, historically it has links with mainland East Jawa, and in the past rulers from Madura counted parts of mainland East Jawa as parts of their realm.Certainly, Madura is an island, but this does not make it a separate entity to the mainland. Indonesians refer to Indonesia as "Tanah Air Kita":- Our Land and Water. Within the psyche of people from this part of the world there is no distinction between water and land as comprising their homeland.The water is just there to allow easy passage to the land.It is all one.

So, is the Tammens keris Madura or East Jawa?

Clearly, it is East Javanese, originating from Madura, specifically, the kabupaten of Suminep.

In my earlier post I should have been more precise in my use of language and written "---mainland East Jawa---", rather than just "---East Jawa---".

Where else in East Jawa is there a tradition of a group of Balinese people living divorced from their homeland?

Yes, there are Balinese people around Banyuwangi, but these people are still attached to Bali, which is just across the strait. An hour away.They are not a separate colony.
Where else in East Jawa can we place it?
Malang? Kediri? Jember?Blitar?
If we wish to place it in or near some other major population center, we will need to come up with a strong argument to do so. I do not yet have the knowledge that would allow me to construct such an argument, but possibly somebody else may have.

If we give an attribution of East Jawa, Central Jawa, West Jawa, that is sometimes adequate, but if we wish to be a little more accurate, we need to look at point of origin: Surakarta (in Jateng), Malang (in Jatim)----and so on.

To address the images provided by Marco.

The image from Bezemer:- I cannot see sufficient detail to decide on the indicators of this keris. The mendak is Madura, the pendok seems a little too tapered for Balinese, the handle seems to tend to the Bali/Madura form. But honestly, I just cannot see enough to know the things I need to know.

The image from Holstien:- the blade is not Balinese, the form of the wrongko atasan is classic Bali/Madura, as is the handle, I am not able to see sufficient to guess method of manufacture of the pendok.

The Vianello image:- sorry, a dealer's montage.

The detail of a pendok on a keris in Marco's collection:- yes, we can find this motif spread over keris, and other art work, from many places in Indonesia, most especially so in modern work.

One thing that could be considered in deciding if we are looking at a Madurese or a Balinese keris is the physical size of the keris concerned.

Balinese keris are worn with the gandar tucked into the top of the sarung at the back, and the handle standing above shoulder height.

Madurese keris are worn tucked into the setagen around the waist.

A Balinese keris in its wrongko is normally long enough to allow projection above the wearer`s shoulder, a Madurese keris is about the same size as most Javanese keris, designed to be worn at the waist.

After looking at these images, I don`t think I have seen anything that will alter my present opinion, but if I were to handle any of these keris---except the "Surakarta" one--- I could well have some doubts raised in my mind.

What I would be looking at would be the way in which the pendok was fabricated, I would be looking at blade origin, I would be looking at handle and wrongko atasan form, I would be looking at the uwer, and I would be looking at the way in which the keris was designed to be worn.

In the Mangkunegaraan Palace Musium in Solo there is a display of Balinese keris.

These keris belonged to mercenaries from Bali employed as guards by one of the past Mangkunegaras.

The dress on these keris---all of which have Balinese blades--- is neither Balinese nor Solonese. It is a sort of cross between a Solo gayam and a Bali gayam, and not at all dissimilar to the basic form of the Bali/Madura wrongko.It is in fact a unique dress style, which I would tend to call Bali/Mangkunegaraan.
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Old 4th October 2006, 11:12 AM   #41
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Thanks Alan for your interesting response
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Old 17th March 2011, 08:32 AM   #42
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Up!

Is this not a classic?

Thanks,

J.
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Old 29th December 2012, 01:42 PM   #43
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By searching through old threads I stumbled about this one and have to add some Madura sheaths.
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Old 30th December 2012, 10:36 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi M.
Up!

Is this not a classic?

Thanks,

J.


Agree, this should be a classic thread!
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Old 30th December 2012, 11:16 AM   #45
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Agree, .....beautiful madura you have Sajen
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Old 30th December 2012, 11:54 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcokeris
Agree, .....beautiful madura you have Sajen


Thank's Marco.
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Old 30th December 2012, 12:22 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
By searching through old threads I stumbled about this one and have to add some Madura sheaths.


Hello Sajen,
Nice pieces! According to M.M. Hidayat, the warangka of your last specimen is in a style locally called capil.
Any opinion if the attached style of sandang walikat warangka is from (continental) East Java or Madura?
Regards
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Old 30th December 2012, 12:47 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Hello Sajen,
Nice pieces! According to M.M. Hidayat, the warangka of your last specimen is in a style locally called capil.
Any opinion if the attached style of sandang walikat warangka is from (continental) East Java or Madura?
Regards


Hello Jean,

thank's! The capil sheathed keris is a patrem.

I think the sandang walikat style can be found in East Java as well in Madura.

Regards,

Detlef
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Old 30th December 2012, 02:16 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi M.
Up!

Is this not a classic?

Thanks,

J.


Added !
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Old 30th December 2012, 02:27 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hello Jean,

thank's! The capil sheathed keris is a patrem.

I think the sandang walikat style can be found in East Java as well in Madura.

Regards,

Detlef


Hello Sajen,
Thanks! Actually my 2 krisses have a rather short blade also (30 cm) and the one with the wooden sandang walikat sheath has a similar hilt to your patrem (village style?).
Regards
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Old 30th December 2012, 02:37 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Added !



Thank's!
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Old 30th December 2012, 02:42 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Hello Sajen,
Thanks! Actually my 2 krisses have a rather short blade also (30 cm) and the one with the wooden sandang walikat sheath has a similar hilt to your patrem (village style?).
Regards


I think it's a very common planar hilt style from Madura, most of the time I have seen it with the three similar scabbards I have posted in the up (# 43).
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Old 4th November 2014, 06:09 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Goodness gracious me!
One thing that could be considered in deciding if we are looking at a Madurese or a Balinese keris is the physical size of the keris concerned.

Balinese keris are worn with the gandar tucked into the top of the sarung at the back, and the handle standing above shoulder height.

Madurese keris are worn tucked into the setagen around the waist.

A Balinese keris in its wrongko is normally long enough to allow projection above the wearer`s shoulder, a Madurese keris is about the same size as most Javanese keris, designed to be worn at the waist.


As I've only handled a small number of keris myself - and no Bali-Madura keris at all - I am curious about what kind of lengths to expect on Balinese wilah from Madura.

To my knowledge and in my experience, Javanese and Maduran blades are usually around 35 cm (13.5") while proper Balinese blades are around 40 cm (15.5") and up.

Would most Bali-Madura keris then also fall into the category of being around 35 cm long? Or could they still easily go up to around 40 cm, which seems somewhat short for a Balinese blade but somewhat long for a Javanese keris.

For those of you with Bali-Madura blades, could you share their lengths with us so we can form a better frame of reference?
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Old 4th November 2014, 09:33 PM   #54
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Withdrawn.
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