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Old 18th May 2006, 12:49 AM   #1
Lei Shen Dao
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Default Javanese Keris Raja Guntala (Merged With Zack's Bugis Gundala Post)

Dear members

I would like to know your opinion about this Javanese Keris that I have in my possesion the last year.

I was told that it is pamor Raja Guntala and the name of it is Belanak Makan Makani / "the Belanak (fish) eating his food".
You can see quite clearly the head of a fish at the base. Along the length of the blade is a larger fish chasing a smaller one. At the base, above the fish head, is the form of a man swimming.

It is very old (at least I was told) but it would be interesting to know the possible era, dapur etc.

Thanks guys
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Last edited by Rick : 11th August 2006 at 12:47 AM. Reason: MERGING POSTS
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Old 18th May 2006, 01:04 AM   #2
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Lei ,
But I just don't see what you are describing in the pamor .
I do see a form that reminds me of a Pepperidge Farm Goldfish cracker ; but I see no fish head nor any man swimming .

I guess that sometimes looking at pamor and interpreting it is like watching clouds .
Then again that is just me ; your and others' mileage may vary .

Again , I speak only for myself and certainly as no 'expert' .

Rick
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Old 18th May 2006, 01:47 AM   #3
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Hi Rick

You are by far a lot more "expert" than me at least.

Yes, I can understand your point and of course this is the case many times with the "pamor reading ".

But, if you see in the first picture you will see the image of a fish chasing a smaller one to eat it. The name of the fish is Belanak (a wild fish in Indonesia I was told...).
In the second picture in the base is a form that remindes the head of a fish (like an epinephelous) with it's mouth slightly open. Above the head of the fish and in the left side, is seems that there is the form of a man (head, two legs) if you see it from a diagonal view. If you see the blade form close distance, it is more obvious.

The interesting thing is that the name of the pamor from the seller was Belanak Makan Makani (named after the form of the Belanak), something that I have never encounder before.

In any case though, you are correct. Fantasy can play many games to a wissfull mind

Thanks for your post.
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Old 18th May 2006, 01:48 AM   #4
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By the way, what is "Pepperidge Farm Goldfish cracker"
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Old 20th May 2006, 12:21 AM   #5
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Guys
Thank you very much for trying to help me.

You are very helpfull
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Old 20th May 2006, 12:57 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lei Shen Dao
By the way, what is "Pepperidge Farm Goldfish cracker"


An American icon, the GOLDFISH cracker. Pepperidge Farm has produced its small goldfish-shaped cheddar cheese cracker since 1962.

WRT your keris:
Yes, I can see that you can call it a Raja Gundala - Ikan Belanak Makan Makane.
A Raja Gundala usually occurs as a dwiwarna, the other being e.g. Beas Utah, Pulo Tirta.
Try to see whether the Raja Gundala is Tiban or carved/etched, the former being more prized by connoiseurs for its divine qualities.

Regards.
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Old 21st May 2006, 12:23 AM   #7
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Dear Pangeran

Thank you very much for your contribution.
It is pamor Tiban from what I know, but I don't have a clue about the dapur and the tanguh. I know it isn't easy to say from some pictures.

Anyway, thank you for your help.
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Old 21st May 2006, 05:05 AM   #8
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Oh, that's a real good likeness!! I've always enjoyed looking for rojo gondolo on kerises with pamor tiban.

I've got a few:

Sleeping bear:
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/module...=view_photo.php

Moustachioed man with gaping mouth:
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/module...=view_photo.php

Screaming face reminiscent of the mask from "I know what you did last summer", I think:
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/module...=view_photo.php

And I have a "fetus" rojo gondolo in a "womb" (actually, a qul buntet):
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Old 21st May 2006, 09:46 AM   #9
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Default Raja Gundala...

Tengkurizan @ Kampungnet have a number of these pamor Raja Gundala, (some with illustrations).

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/module...=view_album.php

This pamor tiban with illustrations...to make it clearer.
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/module...=view_photo.php

Another interesting piece pamor tiban piece with outline.
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/module...=view_photo.php

Sepokal, I hope you don't mind.
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Old 21st May 2006, 01:41 PM   #10
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This is fun! Though i wonder just how far one can stretch the imagination and still refer to the pamor as tiban.
Thanks for the outline work Shahrial, but i think i would actually rather see these without to be able to judge better for myself just how obvious the pattern is. That last one you link to is particularly cool. I realize it isn't your keris, but do you have any idea is the blade is really rosy pink at the base as it appears, or is that just a trick of the light?
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Old 21st May 2006, 01:55 PM   #11
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Default pamor pics...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nechesh
This is fun! Though i wonder just how far one can stretch the imagination and still refer to the pamor as tiban.
Thanks for the outline work Shahrial, but i think i would actually rather see these without to be able to judge better for myself just how obvious the pattern is. That last one you link to is particularly cool. I realize it isn't your keris, but do you have any idea is the blade is really rosy pink at the base as it appears, or is that just a trick of the light?
You're mistaken...the outline work were done by Tengkurizan himself. I merely provided the link. All are Tengkurizan's pieces. It's the lights, alright.

Tiban literally means unplanned. What you're seeing is supposedly pamor Raja Gundala, afaik. Just to clarify.
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Old 21st May 2006, 02:05 PM   #12
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Ah.... then perhaps Tengkurizan might be able to provide a undoctored photo (or maybe there already is one in the full grouping of the photos of this keris).
I am aware of the meaning of Tiban, but thanks for the clarification.....and it's too bad that pink is only a trick of the light, or it would really be an interesting find.
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Old 21st May 2006, 02:41 PM   #13
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These are the sample of Raja Gundala pamor too.
I have 7 blades which have raja gundala pamor.


In this picture you will find the figure of the " puthut ".


In this picture you will find 2 raja gundala pamor.
The first one is in the " sor-soran"...you will find the figure of sitting tiger. ( this is raja gundala pamor ???? )
The second one is in the middle of blade ( near the top of picture )...you will find the figure of ghost. ( this is real raja gundala pamor ).


In this picture you will find the figure of human ( or Ghost? ) in the top of sogokan. In my imagination is look like "wali"...look at the hat...and look the hand with "chi" ready to send hehehehe.
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Old 21st May 2006, 03:10 PM   #14
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Thanks fror the pictures Satria. Is the first one truly and example of Raja Gundala? It appears to be accentuated with carving, not merely the pamor itself.
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Old 21st May 2006, 03:53 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nechesh
Thanks fror the pictures Satria. Is the first one truly and example of Raja Gundala? It appears to be accentuated with carving, not merely the pamor itself.


Thanks Nechesh....
That is not carving....actually in the edge of body of puthut figure is the line of sogokan. Sorry the picture is not good enough.
This is the other side of that "sor-soran".....still puthut figure too but not so clear like the other one.This picture is not good enough too.....sorry.
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Old 21st May 2006, 09:16 PM   #16
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Being skeptical about the first Raja Gundala figure being unimproved myself ; it's just too realistic . The other side does look more naturally occurring ; no insult intended here Satria .

I'm interested in finding out more about this ; but it seems to me as a Westerner that these interpretations of random pamor patterns are pretty subjective .

As I said on this subject in my earlier post " like interpreting the shapes of clouds " ; it's in the eye of the beholder .
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Old 21st May 2006, 11:10 PM   #17
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Hey guys

Nice photos !
Interesting stuff. The truth is that generally some images/forms are too obvious and of course as Rick said, others maybe just wissfull thinking.
Being interested more in the esoteric and the pamor aspect, I have an affection for Raja Guntala.
I'll try to post a photo of a very interesting tiban with 5 images in the sor-soran area, one of them a flykick!

But I am trying to find the possible tanguh of this keris and the dapur.
It isn't tilam upih, is it?
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Old 22nd May 2006, 01:57 AM   #18
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Default Dapur...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lei Shen Dao
Hey guys. Nice photos !
But I am trying to find the possible tanguh of this keris and the dapur.
It isn't tilam upih, is it?
The dapur does looks like Tilam Upih to me.
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Old 22nd May 2006, 02:35 AM   #19
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AHA! FINALLY SOMETHING RELATING TO KERIS I AM GOOD AT I CAN SEE THE THINGS YOU POINT OUT AS WELL AS A FEW OTHER THINGS. MY FAVORITE KERIS IS LIKE LOOKING AT FLAMES, SMOKE AND CLOUDS YOU CAN SEE MANY DIFFERENT THINGS AT DIFFERENT TIMES AND OFTEN MANY THINGS AT ONCE.
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Old 22nd May 2006, 04:25 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VANDOO
AHA! FINALLY SOMETHING RELATING TO KERIS I AM GOOD AT I CAN SEE THE THINGS YOU POINT OUT AS WELL AS A FEW OTHER THINGS. MY FAVORITE KERIS IS LIKE LOOKING AT FLAMES, SMOKE AND CLOUDS YOU CAN SEE MANY DIFFERENT THINGS AT DIFFERENT TIMES AND OFTEN MANY THINGS AT ONCE.
Vandoo, don't be shy.. we wanna see yours...too. As the saying goes... "a picture shows a thousand word, the question is which one...". Last used in The Da Vinci Code movie, where Tom Hanks was giving a lecture with an onscreen display.
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Old 22nd May 2006, 06:10 PM   #21
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Thanks Alam
Give the photos to the world Vandoo
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Old 23rd May 2006, 02:18 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
I'm interested in finding out more about this ; but it seems to me as a Westerner that these interpretations of random pamor patterns are pretty subjective .

As I said on this subject in my earlier post " like interpreting the shapes of clouds " ; it's in the eye of the beholder .


Yes Rick, you are right - its in the eye of the beholder. Thus, different people would see different things, and sometimes, miss something completely. I guess it's the keris' way of 'communicating' with the owner.
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Old 23rd May 2006, 06:08 PM   #23
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Default Raja Gundala

Hello People,

Mr Lei Seh Dao,
Your earliar picture of Raja Gundolo is not a FISH? It is actually a symbol of "LAM ALIF" or "LAM JALALA". One of the Arabic letter of alphabet. I suspect that it is not tiban. It is a planned pamor. No doubt, it is indeed a very good pamor symbol in a keris.

Mr Satria,
I'm sorry but I have to agree with Ricky. The pamor Pendita you are having is not a pamor tiban. To have both side having the same looking picture made it worse to be categorized as pamor tiban. However, it is a very good effort to make the pamor to look like a Raja Gundolo.

By the way guys? What pink light are you guys talking about? The shape of the pamors have been highlighted with different colours for easy viewing.
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Old 23rd May 2006, 07:10 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isreena
Mr Lei Seh Dao,
Your earliar picture of Raja Gundolo is not a FISH? It is actually a symbol of "LAM ALIF" or "LAM JALALA". One of the Arabic letter of alphabet. I suspect that it is not tiban. It is a planned pamor. No doubt, it is indeed a very good pamor symbol in a keris.


I noticed this also, bit for some reason failed to comment. Martin Kerner talks about this in "Keris in the Magic World View". I think you are possibly right that this part of the pamor IS intentional. However, the "big" fish chasing it could perhaps still be considered Raja Gundolo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Isreena
I'm sorry but I have to agree with Ricky. The pamor Pendita you are having is not a pamor tiban. To have both side having the same looking picture made it worse to be categorized as pamor tiban. However, it is a very good effort to make the pamor to look like a Raja Gundolo.


I agree here also......don't you... Ricky?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isreena
By the way guys? What pink light are you guys talking about? The shape of the pamors have been highlighted with different colours for easy viewing.


You are right, i can now see that the "pink" color is actually from a red highlighter around the inner pamor.

You see that too....don't you Ricky?
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Old 23rd May 2006, 07:42 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nechesh
I noticed this also, bit for some reason failed to comment. Martin Kerner talks about this in "Keris in the Magic World View". I think you are possibly right that this part of the pamor IS intentional. However, the "big" fish chasing it could perhaps still be considered Raja Gundolo.




I agree here also......don't you... Ricky?



You are right, i can now see that the "pink" color is actually from a red highlighter around the inner pamor.

You see that too....don't you Ricky?


All right Davey ; no hassling the Moderator .

Isreena the name is Rick ; not the diminutive form 'Ricky' .

As for the 'pinkness' around the pamor I can't see it cause kampung net takes forever to download on my computer and times out .

Last edited by Rick : 23rd May 2006 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 23rd May 2006, 08:12 PM   #26
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Ohhh Lucy!
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Old 23rd May 2006, 08:45 PM   #27
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Cool Sigh

Quote:
Originally Posted by nechesh
Ohhh Lucy!


Okay buster ; it's Frederick to you from now on ........
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Old 23rd May 2006, 09:53 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nechesh

You see that too....don't you Ricky?


lol!
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Old 23rd May 2006, 09:54 PM   #29
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by nechesh
Ohhh Lucy!


You've got some explaining to do!
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Old 23rd May 2006, 10:06 PM   #30
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Talking Ahem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
You've got some explaining to do!


Just for the record (no pun) I am not a Cuban Band Leader/TV Star .
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