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Old 14th February 2005, 02:35 PM   #31
Mare Rosu
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Thumbs up Mysore Dagger pole changes

JENS
Since you will not stop asking question on this great thread of yours
I will answer one at least, to me, it is a possibility, if in fact the magnetic properties of a blade were desirable as JIM states then more would be even better, it would be to me anyway.
I am still waiting for the equipment to visual demonstrate the magnetic effect on the Mysore dagger. Should be in this week, I hope.
Gene
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Old 14th February 2005, 03:14 PM   #32
Jim McDougall
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Yannis and Gene, thank you very much for the kind words! As Gene notes, I am simply sharing information that I can find so we can all learn together, which is exactly what this forum is all about

Yes Jens, you are a tough professor!!! I may never get this huge mess in my den cleared up, but the games afoot, and we gotta keep going!
As I noted with the compass historical data, I think it would be extremely difficult to know even within the range you suggest exactly when the first application to maritime navigation for this phenomenon occurred. The data I noted is simply some that has been referenced, but overall..the jury is still out. The main point here has been that magnetic material had no given domestic or practical value until the actual development of compasses into general use. Even at that juncture there would have been no specific purpose for deliberate use of such material in sword blades.

Back to the presence of lodestone or magnetite in the wootz producing ores in India:
In Pant (p.90), he notes "...in India the steel ingots were carried from the Nirmal District of Hyderabad (Andhra Pradesh), to Cutch, a maritime region on northwest coast of India and exported to Persia, Syria and the East African ports, whence they found their way to Europe".
He notes further production also at Kona Samundrum (in Hyderabad some 25 miles south of Nirmal) and at Dundurthy (14 miles east of Nirmal), and that some of these ores were mixed with some from Indore district.
It is noted further (p.92)that the ores at Kona Samundrum were a mixture of the local magnetic schist with a subordinate quantity of haemetites and the black ferruginous sands found along river beds and nullahs. These were mixed with some of the ferruginous quartzites and schist from the Indore district in proportions 3 to 2, then the mix crushed to a coarse sand. The powdered quartz and other useless matter was then rinsed from the ferrous material.
The complex and detailed description goes on, but I think this illustrates that certain magnetic material certainly did find inclusion in the materials used in wootz production here, but does not appear intentional.

I think that what was intentionally placed in the mix, besides the teak and bamboo charcoal were the leaves of certain trees or plants which were added for magical value (as well obviously as for the carboniferous content).
This is noted in Figiel (p.15) and the use of various plant material in smelting is discussed in Robert Elgoods new book "Hindu Arms & Ritual" in numerous instances.

It is interesting to consider what natural phenomenon would have caused these schists in certain areas to become magnetic. In definition, schist(Gk.=splittable) is described as a class of crystalline rocks whose constituent minerals have more or less foliated (thin, separatable laminae) or parallel arrangement due to metamorphic action.
Here I would defer to our scientists, would that metamorphic action be the lightning strikes that create magnetite from lodestone?
In any case, it appears tht Hyderabad clearly is at least one defined location for magnetism in wootz.

Best regards,
Jim
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Old 14th February 2005, 03:30 PM   #33
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How strong a magnet is a lodestone, and are different stones of different strength?
I think they may be, according to the amount of iron – but I am not sure.
If we accept, that the first compass (sorry JimJ) was a bucket of water with a splinter of lodestone floating on the water, how long time would it take before the stone started diving?
Should they have any use of this early compass, then either the lodestone must be a rather strong magnet – adjusting fast north-south, or the stone must be very light to give it time to adjust before diving.
Gene, I agree with Jim, that making swords and daggers always, especially in the early days, had something to do with mysticism. In the Nordic mythology the dwarfs made the weapons for the Gods, as they were a mystic people, who knew how to put whichever witchcraft desired into any blade. I think the idea of this has been Worldwide, the more a blade differed from another blade, the bigger the talismanic value – and a blade like yours would, I think, have a big talismanic value for the owner.

Jens
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Old 14th February 2005, 04:47 PM   #34
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Hi Jens,

This is going off topic, but I think that, if you put the lodestone on a float (for instance, a piece of cork or wood) then it would float quite easily.

Fearn
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Old 14th February 2005, 05:14 PM   #35
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Hi Fearn,

Yes, you are right of course - I should have thought of it, and yes, you are quite right, I was off the topic .

Jens
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Old 16th February 2005, 04:20 PM   #36
Jens Nordlunde
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I have had an interesting mail from one of our new members, whom I would like to welcome to this forum, Dr. Ann Feuerbach. In the mail she told me to take an interest in Archaeomagnetism. I did not know the word, but I do know, try to go on Google and look for the word. This, I am quite sure will interest many of you, and it gives the whole discussion another angle. Happy surfing.

Jens
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Old 16th February 2005, 04:51 PM   #37
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Archeomagnetism is using old pottery, iron deposits etc. to study the evolution of the Earth's magnetic field.
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Old 16th February 2005, 05:46 PM   #38
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Thank you Rivkin, I know that you also tried to direct me in that direction - when you mention the cheramics - but I did not understand it at the time - sorry.
None the less - this is a most interesting subject, and I tink that much more forumites should join.
This is not only facinating, it is essential how to find out, how old a thing is - and to prove it. Any collector must be interested to join this discussion!

Jens
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Old 17th February 2005, 02:53 PM   #39
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Another thing which can be related to this subject is, Archaeomagnetism. The first time I heard about it was from Ann Feuerbach, I tried to look for it on Google, and I must say, if you don't know what it is, have a look - it is facinating.

Jens
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Old 20th February 2005, 12:45 AM   #40
Mare Rosu
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Question Dagger magnetic fields

JENS
I had a very hard time getting these two pictures of the Mysore dagger.
It took several days just to get them. I used two different types of material to show the effect, one was a powder Iron and very rusty, but it did a better job as it was finer and dispersed better the other, which was Zinc coated Iron filings while not rusty it very course and did not disperse as well.
Regardless the compass will start N and then S and back to N and finally S at the very tip of the 12" blade.

Gene
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Old 20th February 2005, 01:00 AM   #41
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A fantastic picture. I see that most of the blade is not magnetized at all, but there 4-7 macrodomains, which are magnetized. I would say that there definitely has to be some kind of a structural nonuniformety at these points. What surprises me that these domains are quite big, moreover rather than forming let's say a vortex like structure they are actually very well separated.

For now I would say that there are 4 areas that either cooled much slower than the rest of the blade, or somehow else vastly differ from the rest of the blade.

I'm not surprised to see N/S/N configuration: the interaction in between of these areas is obviously dipole-based, and knowing the fact that is magnetized perpendicular to the line that connects these (I don't really want to confuse people by saing "domains") areas, the most benefitial configuration would indeed be the one with the opposite magnetizations.

I will try to get some other opinions on this image - great stuff, thank you.
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Old 20th February 2005, 09:10 AM   #42
Jens Nordlunde
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Thank you very much for the work Gene, it paid off, the pictures are fantastic. Please show us a picture of the blade and a close up of the blade. Thank you for making the experiment.

Rivkin, you obvious know a lot more about this than most of us, which is very good. The trend started as an amateur discussion, but has moved on far beyond that.
You write: ‘For now I would say that there are 4 areas that either cooled much slower than the rest of the blade, or somehow else vastly differ from the rest of the blade.’
What do you mean by writing ‘cooled much slower’ – how much slower would it need to be to give this effect?
When you write ‘or somehow else vastly differ from the rest of the blade’ what do you mean by this – differ in what way?
Could the blade have been made in this way by polishing it with a lodestone?
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Old 20th February 2005, 12:43 PM   #43
Mare Rosu
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Thumbs up Picture of Mysore dagger

JENS
This is a picture of the dagger.
RIVKIN Thanks for your comments on the picture.
I would like to tell all that would try and duplicate this, is this. Be ready for a lot of frustration! as I tried this well over a 50 times over a two weeks time period taking hours and hours of time. I gleefully jumped into this project and just dumped the Iron Powder over the covered blade, sorry it did not work at all for me. To make a long story Short, I had to make a box (patten applied for! )that would hold the dagger level and keep all wind currents away from the Iron powder (sneezing will do "wonders" to the effect, don't ask ) I had to just about place each Iron particle by hand on the paper, as the Iron powder would not form a pattern if to much was used in one place and it had to be even over all the blade. I also think that by leaving it undisturbed, with the Iron powder in place, for two days did allow the Iron powder to take a "set", that's my thinking anyway. It would be nice also if your Iron powder was not rusty as mine was, it sure is messy, and will cause you to sneeze (I said do not ask!). The Zinc coated Iron filings just did not work well for me as it was just to course however it did not cause a mess or make me sneeze.
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Old 20th February 2005, 02:04 PM   #44
Jens Nordlunde
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Gene, could you not have polished the iron powder before you started the experiment? It would have made it a bit less messy . If yje iron powder is very fine, could you not have used a pepperboxto distribute the powder?
From which part of the blade is the experiment?
Thank you for taking your time .
Jens
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Old 20th February 2005, 02:25 PM   #45
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Many blades become magnetized by the stroking of the grinding and sharpening processes; Many of my everyday knives and chisels display this affect, but the pole changing seems weird, and though I've never tested, the magnetization of knives from sharpening seems to be only along the edge and/or tip.
Hot working magnetic steel will demagnetize it, but not all of us knew that. Allow me to propose that the original costumers didn't know it either; perhaps this was a gimmick to "demonstrate" a blade being from a famous magnetic ore deposite (or of course, to suggest other magical/spiritual powers; look how modern paranormalists use their thermometers, manetometers, electrometers, etc.).
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Old 20th February 2005, 05:52 PM   #46
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Default T back

JENS
If you look close at the larger of the two pictures (the one I used Iron powder on) on the left side you can just make out the hilt of the dagger so the orientation, is sharp side of the blade is down and T back side is up and closest to the paper and Iron powder. JENS where were you when I need you? Clean/polish the rusty powder indeed what should I have used Simichrome, or WD-40?

I also must tell you all that I made a big mistake in doing all this . For when I moved the dagger, from taking the last picture, it fell out of the box I used to shield it, the dagger fell about five feet and hit on my concrete floor, hitting the heavy hilted end with enough force to smash one of the gemstones in the hilt end, the stone was a Peridot. I will have it replaced next week (I hope) but I am now afraid to even check to see if the pole reversing was effected in anyway, as some of the forum folks here have stated that blows will effect the magnetic properties of steel, but will do so just as soon as I get over all this. I'll keep you posted.
Gene
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Old 20th February 2005, 06:09 PM   #47
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Gene, why do you ask? When you were supposed to polish the iron powder, I was out walking the dogs - of course .
I am sorry to hear about the dagger, and hope that nothing has happend to it. Should something have happen, try to ask Ann, I am sure that she will be able to help.

Jens
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Old 20th February 2005, 06:20 PM   #48
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Could the material content on the metal influence more than rather ,,induced magnetism,, ?
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Old 20th February 2005, 06:33 PM   #49
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Very cool thread, guys.
It got me to dig out my old Lensatic liquid filled and test some blades. Of all my collection, the one that showed the most interesting affect was an Omani Jambiya with an old blade. It pulled all the way south at the base and then swung all the way north at the tip. Most of my swords did very little in comparison. The surprise was an old and well-used Tibetan Khampa work knife that swings the needle completely north.

-d
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Old 23rd February 2005, 10:34 PM   #50
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Thumbs up Change in the magnetic field

Jens
I have good news and bad news on my dagger I call Mysore ( I think that is a name that depicted my feelings when I dropped the dagger, My Sore!, I wish no disrespect to the good folks in Mysore India as my southern humor is at play here )
I have replaced the Period stone in the handle and it really looks good, that is the good news.
The bad news is that the magnetic field has changed after the drop. While the same N,S,N,S, pattern with my compass is still the same, the overall attraction is a lot less now, I will try to set up a visual display of the effect tomorrow using the Iron powder (no Jens I did not polish the rust off the Iron powder and take some pictures for posting here.
I have something else to confuse, (at least it is confussing to me, that for sure), you good forum folks about all of this, is that the compass needle does not change directions the same way as I move the compass over the blade, one time the needle goes counterclockwise and then it goes clockwise as I move the compass over the blade as it reverses direction. I would think it would always move in the same direction, I will post more information, tomorrow to make this a little more understanable.
Anyway things are getting back to normal with the repair done.
But the mystery of the Mysore Dagger goes on!
Gene

















b
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Old 24th February 2005, 04:21 AM   #51
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That's too bad about your dagger, Mare!

About that quadruple dipole configuration...my mom the electrical engineer (no joke!) had a suggestion:

She suggested that there's a real easy way to smuggle valuable knives. All you do is take a couple of magnets (two horseshoes or four bars) and use them to attach the knife to the underside of a car or truck. The border guard doesn't notice, customs aren't paid....or whatever.

I'm NOT claiming that your knife was purchased illegally! Far from it! Unless you have a complete provenance on it, though, it might be...difficult to figure out where and how it has travelled over the course of its existence.

Anyway, she was of the opinion that the magnetic field you demonstrated so nicely probably resulted by accident, from the knife being exposed to magnets for an extended period of time. The smuggling idea counts here--the magnets were essential, but the pattern is accidental. The alternative would be that someone deliberately magnetized it in that pattern, for reasons unknown.

Since you've dropped it once, I think that running a real test of this involving magnets and your own car would probably count as a Bad Idea. However, it's something to think about, and it'd make a nice party story, at least.

Cheers,

Fearn
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Old 24th February 2005, 10:04 AM   #52
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Gene, it is very unfortunate that you dropped the pesh-kabz, but at the same time it is very fortunate that it did not piece your foot. Always look at the bright sides of life.
Do you have the impression that the hilt of your pesh-kabz is hollow?
The one shown below has a hollow grip, and the blade is magnetic, but only one time N-S.

Fearn, how much does your mother charge to take daggers and swords into another country, will the charge be pr border, and will there be a discount, if there are more than one border which have to be crossed?
I think you mothers suggestion sounds like a possibility we have to take into consideration.
How strong a magnet is a lodestone, and could the magnetism on Gene’s dagger have been obtained by polishing the blade with a lodestone?
Will an electric wire held along the blade improve the magnetism, so that the iron powder will be easier to work with?
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Old 24th February 2005, 12:39 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde
Fearn, how much does your mother charge to take daggers and swords into another country, will the charge be pr border, and will there be a discount, if there are more than one border which have to be crossed?
I think you mothers suggestion sounds like a possibility we have to take into consideration.


And she's such a sweet and innocent-looking lady, too. It's too bad that she doesn't live near any borders that we'd care about.

Personally, I'd secure the blade inside a body panel, simply to keep it clean.

Smuggling aside, I'd suggest that magnets would be a decent display (or whatever) mount for smaller blades, especially guardless ones. Obviously, it wouldn't work on something with a disk guard, like a katana or a dao, but for a slim-line blade, like this pesh-kabz or a dha, it might be a nice way to display it.

Mostly I'd suggest this as an explanation for cases where there are multiple dipoles across the blade. Others here have made some good suggestions about why a knife would have a single dipole, etc.

Fearn
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Old 24th February 2005, 10:25 PM   #54
Mare Rosu
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Thumbs up New pictures of the magnetic field

JENS
Two pictures of the change in magnetic field on the Mysore dagger.
As you can tell the Iron powder is not showing the magnetic field as well as the first time we tested it. I had to use the side of the blade instead of the "T" back as I did in the first "test", to even get this amount to show.
The N, S, N, S change in the compass is still the same, and I cannot tell any change in that at all.
What is puzzling to me is that the needle on the compass does not turn in the same direction. It will go counterclockwise at first then go clockwise the next two times when going to the new poll positions.
The hilt is also solid and that is why it did not go point down and stab me in the leg
You are getting on to me for causing you to have sleepless nights, you should talk, with all the hard questions/information that you post, I have to stay up most of the my nights just to try and stay up with you

FEARN
Your mother's theory on how a blade can get magnetize is one that I would have never thought of. She has talents that are commendable. As the old saying (at least in the South it does) goes, Acorns do not fall to far from the tree.
So you must have the same inclinations/skills
Gene
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Old 24th February 2005, 11:44 PM   #55
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Hi Mare,

Sneaky is as sneaky does, sahr.... (Forrest Gump reference, in case you didn't catch it)

(Un)fortunately, everyone in my family is pretty honest--great practical jokers, but honest otherwise.

One suggestion about the compass needle flipping back and forth is that I suspect it's taking the minimum energy path for flipping. I've seen the same kind of thing playing with a compass and magnets, and I'm pretty sure that the needle will flip back and forth in the minimum arc necessary to follow the magnetic field. There's no particular reason (that I can think of anyway) that the compass will always spin in the same pattern every time.

Personally, I'm enjoying the patterns you're producing. If you really want to get involved, you could get one of those magnetic knife racks and a couple of cheap kitchen knives, and see if you can reproduce the banding pattern.

Fearn
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Old 25th February 2005, 11:32 AM   #56
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Thumbs up Good Idea!

FEARN
I will get one of those knife holders today and give it a try, great idea.
However you are just confirming my deep convictions of your upbringings
I do agree, now that you have explained it to me, on the reason why the needle swings the way is does, most things do go by the path of least resistance.
I am also going to try and find four (cheep) compasses and place them on the blade and take a picture of the compasses all being in a different direction at the same time, just to show to the nay sayers (if there be any out there) that this is happening the way I am explaining it.
Gene
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Old 25th February 2005, 03:08 PM   #57
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Gene, I can see what you mean – did you use the same amount of iron powder, and are the iron pieces of equal size? I guess that you did, and that they are, but it does not hurt to ask, or I may look forward to another sleepless night .
Fearn's suggestion sounds like a good idea to try, I am looking forward to hear how the experiment runs.
You were very fast in getting the stone replaced - do you have a mine of your own?

Jens
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Old 26th February 2005, 12:37 AM   #58
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Thumbs up Peridot mine!

JENS
I did use the same Iron powder as well as trying to do it the very same way. I could not use as much of the Iron powder as the magnetic field was so weak that if I use more it overwhelmed the effect and I could not take a picture of it. I am getting better at this as it only took me six times this time. To answer the question about the Peridot replacement on the dagger is that I went to a store in Franklyn NC called Ruby City and they has a pear/seed shaped stone of the exact size needed for the replacement. I did not want to leave the dagger with them so I bought the stone at the outrageous price of $5.00! and did the replacement my self. I did get "how to" advice from the owner as to how to do it. All in all not a bad days piece of work don't you think? For your information, ( I know you did not ask but I will tell you anyway) that Franklyn, NC is famous for it's Ruby mining as well as Sapphires and Garnets and other gems. You have to watch out as there are a lot of "sea sick" Rubies for the unawares for sale. What is "Sea Sick" Rubies you ask? Rubies from overseas that are of very poor quality and the name comes from the sea voyage over here, are then "salted" in the mines for the "tourist" to find.
FEARN
I took your advice/suggestion and did acquire a magnetic knife holder to test the effect on a cheep carbon knife. I also got four compasses to show the effect on the pol changes on the dagger. Will set this all up tomorrow and take pictures for you and others of the forum.
I ask to all that read this thread that JENS started, am I doing to much on all this? I think it is very interesting, as well as fun ( as long as you do not sneeze when doing the Iron powder test!) but that is just my opinion. Anyway I am winding down on this and should be over the testing tomorrow unless JENS ask more hard questions

RADU
You asked a question earlier on this thread, that never got an answer.
Reason I did not answer is that I did not understand the question, if you are still reading this thread ask again and I'll have one my assistants, JENS or FEARN answer you.
Gene
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Old 26th February 2005, 08:42 AM   #59
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Gene, thank you for answering my questions – also the questions not asked. There is however one question which I did not ask, and which you did not answer. The iron powder you use, how fine is it, is it like table salt, or not quite as fine? From your pictures I think it must be rather fine, but I am not sure.
To my opinion you should go on with the experiment, as I find it interesting and have learned quite a lot from the different answers. Another reason is, that I can’t remember to have seen an experiment like this one on this forum before, although this is/should be part of the interest when collecting swords and daggers.
Jens
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Old 27th February 2005, 03:14 PM   #60
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Hello all!
Now that I have replaced my painfully slow old computer I can start to join in. At the risk of being slightly off the track, here are some thoughts/comments etc on magnetism of crucible Damascus steel blades, for what it is worth.... It would not matter if magnetite was part of the smelt or crucible steel refining process. During the actual production of the crucible steel, since it is liquid and an homogenous steel, the iron particles in the ingot would have a definite alignment to magnetic north (back to Archaeomagnetism). If anyone is really interested in that I could probably give some references as I was teaching it a few weeks ago.
I have heard from those producing crucible Damascus steel today, that at least one blacksmith repeatedly tests the bade during forging, to know when the pattern is good. I will try to find that e-mail, in a list of 500, so it may take a while. Plus, polishing with a loadstone may effect the magnetic properties.
As soon as I get a chance (not till the summer) I will research this topic further, looking for historical references and I will suggest some scientific explinations.
I thought I have covered all aspects of crucible Damascus steel, but magnetivity and sound are the two new brain teasers!

Ann
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