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Old 9th October 2019, 08:02 PM   #1
francantolin
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Default Italian or spanish navaja old knife ?

Hello everybody,

I would like your comments please about this folding knife,

I think it's an old piece ( maybe 19th century ?)
Is it more a spanish navaja or an italian model ? ( coltello romano )
Nice mecanism, seems made with hand made pieces,
it can be locked on three positions.

Thank's for your comments
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Old 10th October 2019, 02:31 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin
Hello everybody,

I would like your comments please about this folding knife,

I think it's an old piece ( maybe 19th century ?)
Is it more a spanish navaja or an italian model ? ( coltello romano )
Nice mecanism, seems made with hand made pieces,
it can be locked on three positions.

Thank's for your comments


It is Spanish, probably mid 19th century, but it would be good to have a detailed pic of the engraving on the blade.

Cheers
Chris
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:16 AM   #3
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Hello,

Thank you Chris !
I'll prepare that !

Kind regards
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:02 AM   #4
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Lot's of info on these ratcheting Navajas here on the forum, 'search' is your friend.
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Old 10th October 2019, 08:51 PM   #5
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Hello,

thank you too Kronckew,
I looked on some threads on the forum but didn't find this exact shape...
here some pictures of the engravings,
nice but ''nothing special'', the same on both side
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Old 10th October 2019, 08:56 PM   #6
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another old knife with nice engravings
maybe a spanish catalan knife
'' Qui mal gasta mal pasar ? ''
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:10 PM   #7
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Default Money waster ...

Qui(en) mal gasta, mal pasa.
Sort of; He who spends badly, badly will live .
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:20 PM   #8
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Hello
"Q U I" is Italian, means HERE, in this world. Therefore, it seems to me that the razor is Italian

Affectionately
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:48 PM   #9
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Hello,

Thank you Fernando(s) : )

Yes maybe dialect of spain
( catalan is really different from spanish )

Or maybe sardinian-corsican italian knife ?...

Kind regards

Francky
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:37 PM   #10
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Hello,

it's spanish, model used in 19th and beginning 20th century, i have one similar, but it was some silver engravings.

Regards,

BV
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Old 11th October 2019, 03:02 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin
another old knife with nice engravings
maybe a spanish catalan knife
'' Qui mal gasta mal pasar ? ''


The overall shape of the knife corresponds most closely to those of Sevilla. For reference see Forton's `Navajas Antiguas, Las Mejores Piezas de Coleccion'.

Catalan navajas generally have a different shape.

The inscription reads like misspelled Spanish. We have to remember that most cutlers were illiterate and engraved the legends by rote.

Cheers
Chris
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Old 11th October 2019, 03:08 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvieira
Hello,

it's spanish, model used in 19th and beginning 20th century, i have one similar, but it was some silver engravings.

Regards,

BV


Yours is French, made for the Spanish market in the late 19th century. See pg 149 of Forton's `Navajas Antiguas, Las Mejores Piezas de Coleccion'.

Edit: Had a bit more time to look in my library and it appears that this folder was made by the French maker Girodias. Reference pg347 in Forton's La Navaja Espanola Antigua.

Cheers
Chris

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Old 11th October 2019, 07:27 AM   #13
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Thumbs up

Hello everybody,

Really nice knife BV !!

Thank you Chris for your precious comments,
I'll have to buy this book !

Kind Regards
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Old 11th October 2019, 10:19 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Evans
Yours is French, made for the Spanish market in the late 19th century. See pg 149 of Forton's `Navajas Antiguas, Las Mejores Piezas de Coleccion'.

Edit: Had a bit more time to look in my library and it appears that this folder was made by the French maker Girodias. Reference pg347 in Forton's La Navaja Espanola Antigua.

Cheers
Chris

Hello Chris,

Did not know that, tks! by the way do you know the value this knife today ?

Regards,

BV
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Old 11th October 2019, 11:26 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvieira
... by the way do you know the value this knife today ...

Sorry Bruno ... no value appraisals here ; you can do it by PM (private message).

Here is page 347 of Forton's.


.
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Old 11th October 2019, 11:52 AM   #16
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Red face Unless ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando K
..."Q U I" is Italian, means HERE, in this world...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Evans
...The inscription reads like misspelled Spanish...

Yet some plausibility applies in this case; QUI and QUIEN were relative terms, back in the middle ages; apparently this left track till 'the other day'.

" Algo más posterior es el estudio de Elvira sobre la sintaxis de los relativos qui y quien en español antiguo15. A partir de un corpus de textos medievales, analiza los usos sintácticos de los pronombres qui y quien en relativas con antecedente explícito "


.
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Old 11th October 2019, 01:28 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Yet some plausibility applies in this case; QUI and QUIEN were relative terms, back in the middle ages; apparently this left track till 'the other day'.

" Algo más posterior es el estudio de Elvira sobre la sintaxis de los relativos qui y quien en español antiguo15. A partir de un corpus de textos medievales, analiza los usos sintácticos de los pronombres qui y quien en relativas con antecedente explícito "


.


Thank you for that clarification.

Cheers
Chris
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Old 12th October 2019, 07:01 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin
Hello,

Thank you Fernando(s) : )

Yes maybe dialect of spain
( catalan is really different from spanish )

Or maybe sardinian-corsican italian knife ?...

Kind regards

Francky



A funny example of big difference between catalan and spanish:

''Please'' said '' Por favor'' in spanish
and became '' Si'us plau '' in Barcelona , ( written on old walls of the city )
coming from the french '' S'il vous plait'' ( close to the frontier...)
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Old 12th October 2019, 07:02 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin
A funny example of big difference between catalan and spanish:

''Please'' said '' Por favor'' in spanish
and became '' Si'us plau '' in Barcelona , ( written on old walls of the city )
coming from the french '' S'il vous plait'' ( close to the frontier...)


Tha's too why they want their independence
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Old 12th October 2019, 04:25 PM   #20
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According to a compadre, the book mentioned is good for nice pics and there is some good info in it if you read Spanish but most of the info in it about certain knives from certain regions is wrong, an Spanish expert has authored books in Spain along with his mentor has told my mutual friend that this book did have some good info in it but should not be used as a definitive source of info for researching navaja's. We were discussing it a few days ago outside the forum in relation to one he was considering. Anyway, I cannot as yet discuss it tho it looks very similar to the one originally posted, tho with a blonde horn grip and appears to be smaller. It is inscribed with a dedication mentioning Sevilla and dated in the mid 19c.

Last edited by kronckew : 13th October 2019 at 04:20 PM. Reason: fixed language errors
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Old 13th October 2019, 03:06 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
According to a compadre, the book mentioned is good for nice pics and there is some good info in it if you read Spanish but most of the info in it about certain knives from certain regions is wrong, an Italian expert has co-authored books in Italy along with his mentor has told my mutual friend that this book did have some good info in it but should not be used as a definitive source of info for researching navaja's. We were discussing it a few days ago outside the forum in relation to one he was considering. Anyway, I cannot as yet discuss it tho it looks very similar to the one originally posted, tho with a blonde horn grip and appears to be smaller. It is inscribed with a dedication mentioning Sevilla and dated in the mid 19c.


Interesting. Which of the two of Forton's books referred to was your source criticizing?

Quote:
......but most of the info in it about certain knives from certain regions is wrong,<snip>


Any specific examples?

As a generalization, antique Spanish folding knives are very difficult to identify because the majority are undated and do not carry the maker's name. This was attributed to the harasement and persecution of the cutlers by the authorities of the day.

Quote:
....has told my mutual friend that this book did have some good info in it but should not be used as a definitive source of info for researching navaja's.


So what does he suggest as better alternatives?


Cheers
Chris

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Old 13th October 2019, 08:59 AM   #22
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I'll ask them.

The example I mentioned is marked to Sevilla, and has a very specific date commemorating an event as well, I'll save a photo for after it is sold, possibly to my friend, or me if he isn't bidding on it.

How's your Spanish?

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Old 13th October 2019, 10:20 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
I'll ask them.


Will be interesting to see what they have to say - The more information, the better.

Quote:
How's your Italian?


As good as Google Translate!

Cheers
Chris
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Old 13th October 2019, 04:13 PM   #24
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OOPS! wrong book they were talking about was in Spanish! I got my books and languages mixed up. they're looking up the not-so-good book details for me. Got mixed up after re-reading the last thread we had on blade marks on an Italian sword blade.

Would be easier if we all spoke non-googley Engrish. Heck I can Hardley speak 'Murican. I prefer Portugal to Spain anyway, the food is better and so is the wine, but I do need to get back to Italy, my friend there is holding a 200 year old bottle of wine for me that needs drinking. With home made pasta and wild boar sausages like his dad used to make from the boar he shot. I think I can still feel the wine hangover from the last visit to his hunting lodge in the Etruscan Mountains.

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Old 13th October 2019, 04:28 PM   #25
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Wink Just for the fun of it ...

So Waine, it would be a miracle if there were no wrong info in Forton's work, and you may bet that your compadre's acquainted Italian experts will not be the first ones to exclude imprecisions in their work as well. Have you had a look to Forton's work? the bibliography he has consulted counts no less than some seventy six authors/works ... two, being Italian.
Indeed Forton's work has not been translated but, neither was that of the Italian experts. And Forton's so far had a third edition published ... 'corrected and augmented'.
My knowledge of navajas is nihil; i am more focusing on the certainty with which some folks determine that the other guy's work has flaws, letting transpire that theirs is perfect ... as opposed to the old saying; my neighor's hen is (always) fatter than mine .
It will be interesting to check on that example you talk about, to see whether that navaja was made i don't know where and later had the Sevilla dedication added.
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Old 13th October 2019, 04:32 PM   #26
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Mea culpa, nothing to do with Italy, see above. I'm going to have a glass of Taylor's Port and lie down....If I can find the Bottle in my new kitchen, they finished remodelling it Friday.

I suspect the book they were referring to was indeed Forton's, probably an older edition, in Spanish.

I'm gonna stop digging anyway before the hole gets too deep to claw my way back out.

===================Stop the Presses==============
One more spade full: It was indeed Fortan's book he was referring to.

My navaja guy contacted his SPANISH expert who told him the Pictures in the Forton Navaja book are pretty, but the descriptive parts are better excised and used for toilet paper. He was a bit more descriptive, so i toned it down a bit.

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Old 14th October 2019, 03:01 AM   #27
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Hi,

Fernando made an excellent commentary on Forton's works and the only meaningful thing that I can add is that until we know exactly which of his many works on this subject is being objected to and the precise grounds for the said objection, we should put this discussion on hold.

Forton's writings on this subject are serious works, worthy of academia, and definitely not those of a lightweight dilettante, and probably the most thoroughgoing in the Spanish language - Thus any valid criticism has to be presented along with solid evidence to allow meaningful discussion.

Cheers
Chris
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Old 14th October 2019, 08:07 AM   #28
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Chris, One piece of the Puzzle, this is the dust cover of the book. I do not have a copy, tho my spanish reading friend does. Maybe he will offer some examples of misleading descriptives. I'm just the middle man stirring the hornet's nest for them and warning 'Caveat Emptor'.
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Old 14th October 2019, 09:52 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
Chris, One piece of the Puzzle, this is the dust cover of the book. I do not have a copy, tho my spanish reading friend does. Maybe he will offer some examples of misleading descriptives. I'm just the middle man stirring the hornet's nest for them and warning 'Caveat Emptor'.


Thanks for that, and I do have a copy.

This is what we may call a coffee table book, with 237 photographs of single and groups of fine collectable navajas sorted by origin of locality, mostly from within Spain but also including France, Italy, broader Europe, the Orient and Sundry. Each photograph carries a short commentary on the knives portrayed in both Spanish and English.

I cannot pass judgement on the accuracy of the alleged origin and dating of many of the navajas presented but will reiterate what I already said in my post #27, i.e. that their positive identification, in the absence of maker's brand and date, is by necessity a guessing game, all too often based on community consensus.

As well, in the Prologue, the author acknowledges the many difficuties involved due to lack of access to many archives, the loss of documentation and the passing of time.

Even when the knife carries a brand, as exemplified by the ubiquitous wares of Valero Jun, of Zaragoza, their true origin remains unknown (most probably Thiers in France), because it was, and remains, a widespread practice in the cutlery industry to commission the fabrication of knives with contractors and then inscribing them with the vendor's logo or brand.

And on top of all this we have the additional problem of brand falsification by unscrupulous cutlers, once a very common practice.

My general view of the book is that it is as reliable as any Spanish or English source in print and far better than most, and if it does contain some verifiable errors which do not come down to mere opinions (as re Valero Jun), then these must treated as editorial in origin.

What would be a great service to collectors is if someone has indeed found such errors, then compile an errata and post it somewhere on the web.

Cheers
Chris

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Old 14th October 2019, 12:29 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Evans
because it was, and remains, a widespread practice in the cutlery industry to commission the fabrication of knives with contractors and then inscribing them with the vendor's logo or brand...

Or like those pre-engraved with decor motifs destined to sell as Sevilla recuerdos ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Evans
What would be a great service to collectors is if someone has indeed found such errors, then compile an errata and post it somewhere on the web.

Or publish a work where such errors are eradicated; and let the readers/collectors themselves define which one is best for carta higienica .
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