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Old 22nd February 2007, 11:47 PM   #1
A. G. Maisey
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Default The Flying Keris

Recently there have been several threads that touched on the mystical/magical qualities of the keris.

When I use the term "mystical/magical" I am not referring to the qualities of a keris associated with the talismanic beliefs surrounding various pamor patterns and blade forms (dapur), nor am I referring to the belief system that positions a pusaka keris as the cosmological focus joining the present owner to previous owners and linking these through the keris to all living members of the kin group.

Rather, I am referring to qualities, sometimes attributed to a keris, which place it firmly in the realm of the paranormal:- keris which cause death; keris which cause illness; keris which leave their scabbards and fight for their owners; keris which escape from locked rooms, go on a killing spree and then return to their locked cabinets; keris which cause their owners to kill their wives and neighbours ( irrespective of the wife being unfaithful and taking the neighbour as a lover), and of course flying keris.

My opinions on this type of keris have been formed over a very long period, and the experiences and knowledge that have caused me to form my opinions are the experience and knowledge I have gained as somebody who has very close contact with a number of keris dealers and craftsmen in Central Jawa and Bali. Additionally, I have close family contact with an acknowledged and respected paranormal, and casual friendly relations with a number of other paranormals living in Central Jawa.

I do not feel it is my place to denigrate the beliefs of those people who hold strong beliefs in respect of the powers of keris such as I have mentioned above. As has previously been noted in this discussion group, we may all hold whatever beliefs we will.

However, I do feel that the following story, which is only one of many similar stories that I know, could possibly explain why it is that I hold my present opinions.

For the enhancement of your knowledge I give you the story of a flying keris:-


This is a story about an extremely powerful keris that could fly, escape from and re-enter locked rooms and steel safes, and always return to its righful owner.

This is a true story, and I know personally one of the people concerned in this story.

Going back to about 1985 or 1986 there was a keris salesman who lived in Solo, and who had a particularly ugly keris that he had tried for a long time to sell, but could not find anybody who would buy it from him. He gave a lot of thought to this problem of having dead money on his hands in the form of an unsaleable keris, and he finally hit upon a plan that he was certain would allow him to free himself of this keris.

He had a brother who lived in Surabaya, and he approached him and asked for his assistance, which the brother readily agreed to give.

The keris salesman then approached a well known collector in Solo and told him that he knew of an extraordinary keris that was available for sale. This keris belonged to a man who lived in Surabaya, and who was desperate for money because he had to pay for an operation for his wife. The keris was a family keris that had been given to the seller's ancestor by Sunan Ampel, and it possessed the power of flight. Not only could this keris fly faster than the wind, but it could escape from any restraint, including locked doors and steel safes, and it would always return to its righful owner. The price being asked was very high, but it was a unique and powerful keris. Was he interested in meeting the owner?

The Collector was more than interested in meeting the owner! He was burning with desire to have the opportunity to see, and perhaps obtain this fabulously powerful keris.

The Collector agreed that on the coming Sunday morning he would come to the Keris Salesman's house, where he would meet the Man from Surabaya who wanted to sell this keris.

Come Sunday morning, the Collector duly rolled up in his Mercedes Benz, the Man from Surabaya was already there, they were introduced, shared drinks and conversation, and finally the Man from Surabaya allowed the Collector to see and handle the wonderful keris.

Of course, the Collector was no fool. He'd been around the traps two or three times and he was well aware that not everybody is entirely honest when it comes to selling anything, let alone keris. He did not build his business empire by being fooled and lied to by people, so he did the natural and expected thing:- he asked for proof of the fabulous abilities of this keris to fly faster than the wind, escape from locked rooms, and return to its rightful owner.

The Keris Salesman proposed a test of the fabled abilities of this keris; during conversation, he himself had expressed doubts that any keris could escape from a steel safe, even if it might be able to fly. He proposed that he lock the keris in his safe, and that all three of them---the Man from Surabaya, the Collector, and himself drive to Surabaya and see if the keris did in fact return to its rightful owner. The Man from Surabaya had no hesitation in agreeing to this test, and stated that he was positive that his keris would be there in its normal place when the three of them arrived. The Collector agreed to the test and said that if the keris was there when they arrived in Surabaya, he would be very interested in negotiating an agreement to make it his.

OK. Everything was agreed and the three of them got into the Collector's Mercedes and set off for Surabaya.

Its about a 4 hour run from Solo down to Surabaya, and along the way they stopped a couple of times to have refreshment, and relieve themselves. Eventually they arrived in Surabaya, pulled up at the Man from Surabaya's house, unlocked the front door, unlocked the door of the room where the keris was normally kept, unlocked the cupboard where the keris normally rested, and----there it was!

The same keris that had been left locked in a steel safe, in a locked room, in a locked house in Solo had escaped from the house and the safe, flown from Solo to Surabaya, arrived before the three men, and found its own place in the house of its rightful owner.

This was indeed a powerful keris!

The Collector immediately wrote a cheque for the bride price.

He then gave the Keris Salesman the expected 10% of the bride price, as his commission.

The Man from Surabaya cashed the cheque, kept 10% as his commission, and paid the balance to his brother, the Keris Salesman

The Collector was so pleased with having obtained such a wonderfully powerful keris that he kept it forever in a locked box in his safe, and never even allowed another person to see it. One does not take any risks at all with something as powerful and as valuable as a keris like that!

This is a true story.

And here is the other side of it.

When the three men left for Surabaya in the Mercedes, the Keris Salesman's son took the keris from his father's safe, using the spare key. He hopped on his motorbike and lit out for Surabaya. Rode straight through without a stop. Twenty year old kids don't suffer from prostate problems.
He opened up his uncle's house with the keys that had been given to him, placed the keris where he had been told to , locked everything up again, and rode back to Solo.

Yes indeed, a wonderfully powerful keris.

It managed to extract an amount of money equivalent to the price of decent house, from a very clever businessman.
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Old 23rd February 2007, 02:15 AM   #2
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Default Stories and trickery...

I do listen to stories... but believing in it is another. While researching, one can hear many kinds of stories. Stories like these are rampant. There's even a book "Esoteri Keris", (in Bahasa Indonesia), which forewarned about these trickery.

To me, even if it's a "powerful keris", it's no point having it without knowledge of its use. It's like having a machine gun, but don't know how to load the cartridge and fire the weapon. It's meaningless.

To each their own. Thanks for the story.

Last edited by Alam Shah : 23rd February 2007 at 02:47 AM.
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Old 23rd February 2007, 03:53 AM   #3
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IMHO, the keris itself dont have any power. Its just an object. The problem is caused by these entities and human being themselves. As a Muslim, i will always believe in the "cant be seen" stuff. But one thing to remember, human are superior than them and in now way they can harm you without god's willing. We report directly to God, there is no need for a third party participation. Humans can do a lot more damage.
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Old 23rd February 2007, 05:09 AM   #4
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As somebody of Celtic bloodlines on both sides of my family, and three generations removed from pure Irish peasantry, I also do have a strong belief in the unseen. I grew up believing that bunches of garlic over the doors and windows kept out evil spirits. Spilt salt? An invitation to the devil.

However, how can any rational man believe that something made by man can possess a power above the power of God?

Even the existence of spirits, which would be difficult to deny, seems to be mostly, or perhaps always, associated with human emotion.

Then there is the factor of the communal sub-conscious.

Yes, the unseen is there, but can it harm you? Only if you believe it can.

Now, as for flying keris, as Shahrial says,there are many of these stories, but the cautionary thing is this:- stories like this can be laughed at in retrospect, however, when you are involved in them first hand, and the sandiwara is skilfully presented, it is a rare person who will not be taken in. The businessman in my story was and still is a very successful man. Now probably in his 70's, Chinese, and very hardnosed.Definitely nobody's fool. But he got sucked in and carried along just the same.

One of the things that I find particularly interesting are the ways in which some purveyors of keris have adapted their styles to the electronic medium. It is one thing take somebody for a ride when you are face to face. It is something else entirely to be able to do it over the net. Lew's example in another thread was a fairly unpolished presentation, but some of the more refined people can create magic ( of a different kind).
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Old 23rd February 2007, 01:27 PM   #5
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the keris after all was said DID return to it's 'rightfull' owner, didn't it. the magic worked. it needed to use a kid on a motorcycle tho.
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Old 23rd February 2007, 02:34 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rasdan
IMHO, the keris itself dont have any power. Its just an object. The problem is caused by these entities and human being themselves. As a Muslim, i will always believe in the "cant be seen" stuff. But one thing to remember, human are superior than them and in now way they can harm you without god's willing. We report directly to God, there is no need for a third party participation. Humans can do a lot more damage.


Well put Rasdan. I am not a Muslim, but this world view crosses both cultural and religious lines. I too have long been a believer in the the "unseen" worlds and have had my own personal experiences which have proved to me that such worlds and entities exist. But i also believe that true power resides within us as it is channeled through us from a higher source.
I have also had the pleasure of having a number of close friends who are fantastic stage magicians. Any one of them could easily make a keris appear to fly, disappear from one place and appear in another, draw water from it's blade or any one of the many feats often attributed in stories to "powerful" keris and you or i in audience to these events would never catch the tricks they use to produce these effects. The difference is that these magicians will openly tell you that they are using a trick (though they will never show you how they do it ). This is not to say that i do not believe that the keris is truly a deeply spiritual and magickal tool. But IMO parlor tricks is not the essence of the magick held within the keris.
We humans are also constantly looking for excuses for our behavior or reasons for why things happen to us. Some one in a previous thread mentioned that they know of a man whose keris forced him to give it his wife (though i'm not sure exactly how that works ). This is sort of a form of the "the devil made me do it" syndrome. It is so much easier for us to simply blame our actions or troubles on a cursed keris than to take responsibility and own up.
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Old 23rd February 2007, 03:57 PM   #7
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Yeah David, cant blame somebody else on something you yourself did. But when you had sold your soul to the devil, well.. things aint going to be easy to explain..
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Old 23rd February 2007, 10:04 PM   #8
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The whole "magic keris" business falls within the ambit of beliefs surrounding sorcery, witchcraft and magic in general. As an object it need be no more "magical" than any other object.

The magical object in South East Asian societies gains its power from cultural and social structure and beliefs. Where this "magic" spills over into European cultures it is because the South East Asian beliefs have influenced the European beliefs.

An excellent book which may give a little insight into these matters as they are placed in SE Asian societies is :- "Understanding Witchcraft and Sorcery in Southeast Asia"---Watson and Ellen, Uni Hawaii Press, 1993.
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Old 24th March 2007, 06:33 PM   #9
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magic, genie, angel, god, flying keris, walking keris whatelse belive it or not or dummy or fool

loving god (magical power) and his propet is amazing faith ( I belive in god very much), is it dummy or fool?

according to me please respect the defference belive or faith. someone belive that keris can fly (respect it). malay, javanese and other southeast asia belive keris has magical power (respect it please). once US seller in Ebay said his keris has genie (please respect it). buy it if you belive, don't buy it if you don't. gitu saja kok repot ( please take it easy).

one day one said don't buy keris because of the magic or story (don't belive what he said as long as he is a javanese malay or other southeast asian) but you must respect it.

one day US seller on Ebay said that his keris has genie and other said " guinea or pig or hog" please don't condamed it but respect it

but one who said org , pig or guinea is hog itself. Respect it.

but the important is please respect each other so that keris can't killed human being but keris is loved by humanbeing. belive it.....

The man belive god as their savior and respect the keris as the masterpiece is not the pig or guinea (One said) but the wise man who belive there is other power exept our fool brain, please respect and belive it.









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Old 24th March 2007, 11:33 PM   #10
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Lelang, your call for respect should be well heeded, however i do not see any lack of respect voiced in this thread. There are certainly many mysteries in the world and one would be foolish to scoff outright at the possibilities. I personal try to keep an open mind while still maintaining a touch of skepticim lest i become someone elses fool. Unfortunately the realm of magick and mysticism has become a tool for the unscrupulous and (in some cases) criminal. For me it is not a matter of whether or not the keris can hold a mystical or magickal current. The question for me is does THIS keris that someone is trying to sell to me hold any such energy or am i just being treated to a nonsense story to grab my interest and convince me that i should buy the keris. Unfortunately most often i fear this is the case when we read about "powerful" keris being sold at auction. Faith is a beautiful thing and i truly respect it and the rights of others to believe whatever they see fit. Blind faith, however, leads to gulibility, and many people have been taken in this way over the years. The story that Alan Maisey has revealled here is a true one. He knows the inside story on this particular deal and the fact remains that this buyer was fooled. If one wants to believe something someone will always find a way to prove it to them, even if it isn't so, if there is money to be made. Those who choose not to question are easily fooled. An open mind must flow both ways. This story does not teach us that we should not believe that a keris can fly, just that keris did not.
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Old 25th March 2007, 04:15 PM   #11
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Default We overlook the simplest 'miracles'...

In my musical teachings I explain that the voice is so powerful that I can even move things with my voice. People of course think that I am going to make something move in front of them without anyone touching it.

Later I ask someone to get me a glass of water, and when I have it in my hand I explain the obvious; that I used my voice to move something.

So yes, the keris did 'fly home'.

It's like the value of art; a piece of canvas with oil paint on it is worth millions because somebody says that it is.

Is it worth it to you? that's the question. And if the value includes things that only you can see, that's the value to you.
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Old 25th March 2007, 09:05 PM   #12
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Well put Montino. Haven't seen you around much lately. Nice to hear from you again.
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Old 26th March 2007, 03:55 AM   #13
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The "Flying Keris" is only one of many stories that I know about the realities of "magic".

However, I also know of really inexplicable things, such as the ability of a member of my family to know of things happening in distant places before being told. For instance, the death of somebody a long way away, and how it happened.

There are things that cannot be explained logically, and there are also things that can be made to appear to be inexplicable.

As for the voice, well, as today's calendar page tells me:- "The power of life and death lay within the voice."
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Old 26th March 2007, 04:54 PM   #14
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The relationship between real power and tricks is more blurred in Indonesia than it is in America where we acknowledge one or the other. I watched a pendekar show a crowd of tourists how a magical stone could protect him from being cut. He showed us his arm shaking as the power entered him, then he chopped his arm with a golok. As he chopped, he kicked the sofa he was sitting on so it made a loud thump. The golok did not cut him, but left a line where it had hit. We would dismiss this as a trick. The shaking arm was showmanship, and kicking the sofa hid the fact that the chop was without power. However, I watched carefully, and while there was a trick, what he showed was quite real. It was a good solid strike to his arm. He new he was putting on a show, but he also believed in his own power. That power was not superhuman, but still took some skill. Later when the tourists left, he used the stone magic to fill his students with their movements. While this could be seen as more trickery, the effect on the students was real. Their movements were good, and unselfconscious bordering on trancelike. Where is the trick? Is it the show that builds the belief, the true belief that filled his students, or the real ability that the students demonstrated? Like many Americans, I tend to think that if I spot a trick, then the whole activity is suspect. In Indonesia, the trick is often beside the point, and expected. People with magical power often combine slight of hand, showmanship, carefully honed skills in reading body language, hypnotism, and faith healing using the placebo effect to accomplish amazing things. We should not forget that what appears to be trickery can involve great skill, and have real effects.
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Old 26th March 2007, 07:02 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josh stout
I watched a pendekar show a crowd of tourists how a magical stone could protect him from being cut. He showed us his arm shaking as the power entered him, then he chopped his arm with a golok. Josh


Hello Josh. I presume that you must be the Josh from PGB ... so "Salam Perguruan!" _()_ (this is meant to be hands soja before chest). ... Gentlemen, I think we have a White Crane pendekar here.

In Indonesia you often come across what appears to be magic. I have experienced it to especially with keris and othe tosan aji. First I found a keris in my grand mother's empty house - had been empty for years. I was practising some movement meditation and my hand felt like it was pulled very hard to the top of a cupboard and there was a keris, completely clean lying on a thick bed of dust. A few minutes after I picked it up, a neighbour came with a torch looking for what he saw as a bright light falling on to the roof. I wear this keris when I play dalang in London and always people fall in love with me. It is just a simple tilam upih in a gayaman timoho pelet wrangka, nothing special, the ganja has come loose and the pamor is only wos wutah but it seems to have a strong magic in it, stronger than an other keris I inherited which looks and is physically a much better keris. The better one never brings me the same type of luck when I wear it.

An other time, I lost a tombak from my room. I loved this tombak very much because my grand mother gave it to me as a child and used to tell me to use it to move rain clouds when she was drying rice. I lost it about 10 years ago... then last year my wife smelled a very sweet smell in the room and her hand felt as if was being pulled, and there, on top of our wardrobe was the tombak. Only the blade, the shaft was lost, the blade was a little uncared for but I recognized it as mine immediately.

Yesterday I was riding my motorbike to look at all the deforestation around Ngawi (where I live - massive deforestation the year Suharto stepped aside) and saw some interseting stone sculptures in a garden at the edge of a remote village. A strange place to see such expressive carvings I thought so I stopped and asked who made them. The man in the verandah said they were his. Then I noticed some older stones which looked like bonangs and kenongs from a gamelan set, and also some small linggas. I asked him whose they were and he said that they were ancient ones he found in his kebun. I asked if I could buy them of him and he said he did not dare sell. Why? I asked... he said that several of them have returned by themselves to the place he found them... and I believe him.

Maybe I am just a fool but in the silat world there are many things that seem to be magic. My trainer could make people not find his house - walk right past it. An other teacher could speak as if he was whispering in your heart. When ever one trainer moved the long movement of Crane Moves in Nine Shadows someone would fall in to trance. Why? I don't know. One thing I think is sure is that if someone has a magic keris they are not going to ever sell it.

Warm salaams to all,
Bram.
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Old 26th March 2007, 07:52 PM   #16
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Josh, you are revealling some of the key secrets to true magick. Magick works on many levels and from many different directions sometimes. We should never underestimate the power of the brain either. When someone is healed by a plecebo for instance, those who chose not to acknowledge magick will say it's only in their heads. But the man has been healed! That power of the mind to heal is as much magick as anything else. And as Josh has stated, a certain amount of showmanship gets thrown into the mix with any good act of magick to elevate the level of consciousness to the point that allows the magick to take hold. I find it funny when folks denounce magick as being only in your head as if that somehow invalidates it or makes it unreal. We are the sum of our experiences and these experience help determine out realities. Even so, this doesn't mean that trickery and showmanship are not often used to bilk unsuspecting people out of large sums of money as was the case in Mr. Maisey's story of the flying keris. Again i encourage all to keep an open mind, but also a modicum of skepticism in your tool kit when attempting to determine an "authentic" magickal or mystical experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiai Carita
One thing I think is sure is that if someone has a magic keris they are not going to ever sell it.

Bram, it is nice to hear from you again. I have had similar experiences with "magickal" objects, but not, as yet, with any of my keris. Your statement here is of the utmost importance to us in the collecting community when trying to understand keris and the magickal experience. The sad truth is that just about any time you are told a story about the magickal powers of a keris that someone is trying to sell you it will most likely be a lie. This does not negate that there is a true magickal "reality" to keris. It is just that these stories are most often used by unscupulous dealers to get your money. Certainly it is true of internet sales like on eBay, where the buyer never has the opportunity to come in contact with the keris to sense if there is any active energies working there. So the old axiom still holds guys. Buy the keris, not the story.

Last edited by David : 30th March 2007 at 02:49 AM.
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Old 27th March 2007, 05:45 AM   #17
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Let's pass on the question of buying and selling magic, just for the moment.

Let us consider this:-

in the Javanese world view, how much of the physical things of the world are reality, and how much of an idea is reality?

if the physical and the idea or belief can come together in the micro cosmos of man, is not the reality of the idea as one with the reality of existence of the physical object?

thus, if an idea is real for a person, or for a group of people, is not the value of that idea equivalent to the value of actuality?

If we look at Javanese society, and the way in which it is organised , we can find multitudes of examples that could be used to illustrate the proposition I am putting forward here. The keris and the position it occupies within Javanese society complies with the parameters set by the society for the relationship between all physical things and all non physical things. It is not a special case. It falls within the general framework of the way in which Javanese people tend to see the world.

The anthropologist, Niels Mulder, who carried out considerable research in Jawa, has written fairly extensively on this uniquely Javanese way of relating to the world.

Of course, there is a downside to this way of acting and reacting, and it comes when people with these attitudes are forced to act and react with the world outside their own. The Asian monetary crisis hit in 1997. Ten years later, Indonesia is still suffering the effects of this.

Why?
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Old 27th March 2007, 03:54 PM   #18
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Thank you Bram for the nice introduction._()_

Relating to the idea of a keris working as a connection between the inner and outer worlds-

"...thus, if an idea is real for a person, or for a group of people, is not the value of that idea equivalent to the value of actuality?

If we look at Javanese society, and the way in which it is organized, we can find multitudes of examples that could be used to illustrate the proposition I am putting forward here. The keris and the position it occupies within Javanese society comply with the parameters set by the society for the relationship between all physical things and all non-physical things. It is not a special case. It falls within the general framework of the way in which Javanese people tend to see the world..."

This is very well put, and also reveals one of the problems with intangibles. Our mind builds bridges between the inner and outer worlds. These bridges come in the form of movements or physical things like the keris that when done in the right way, form bridges into the inner realm of others. We often think that if something has its origin in mental states or beliefs, then it its validity rests purely in the mind and is thus open to any interpretation. Some people believe things as fast as they can make them up. However, what the keris teaches us is that a true bridge is not casually constructed by unskilled labor. There is physical skill that forms the substance for the beliefs. This is true for art in general, but when the art carries the spiritual and metaphysical as part of its creation the skill and physical techniques require that much more dedication. In addition, it takes a certain amount of skill to simply be able to recognize the level of mastery that it takes to produce a keris or other thing with inner power. This is why as collectors become more knowledgeable they often seek out the older keris. The old and the new may look similar, but often they are not the same. Some people think only the old keris have power. I don't know about that, but it would be typical of modern things to be made without the level of skill necessary. Still as a physical skill, no matter how difficult, it is still possible that some may still have it. Modern life is just not conducive to the dedication necessary to reach that level.
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Old 6th April 2007, 01:29 PM   #19
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Arguably the most important part of a keris is the blade. A family that have falling on hard times may chose to sell the outer “clothing” of a valuable family keris but will often not sell the blade. The blade is described and categorized according to its physical/artistic construction along with its age but there is another category which is to many more important, a keris blade is said to be either alive or dead.
A keris which is alive has an energy field around the blade which may be experienced by different people in various ways. Some can actually see a soft coloured light around the blade others feel a sensation of lightness, warmth or tingling when they touch the blade. A dead blade is exactly as the term “dead” suggests. It is devoid of any energy field and although it may be a beautifully constructed keris at the end of the day it is only a piece of steel.
A blade which is alive (ampuh) can be categorized variously depending on the nature of the energy which permeates the blade. Firstly the blade can be termed good or bad, a better word would perhaps be evil.
The blade may have a type of consciousness or not.
A common bar magnet which is surrounded by a magnetic field is nothing more then a piece of steel with an energy field around it however we would not say it was alive yet it clearly has properties which a common piece of steel has not. Similarly it is possible to magnetize a keris blade if you have the knowledge to do so. The result is a piece of steel with an energy flowing through the blade. It may be used as a conduit to heal or harm but it has no consciousness so to speak.
A blade which possesses consciousness can be categorized into two types, either the owner has made the blade an extension of his body and thus the blade is mentally linked to the owner or the blade has been put in the service of a jinn, good or bad by binding it to the blade through the use of magical rites.
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Old 6th April 2007, 01:44 PM   #20
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Interesting Pusaka; thanks for the input.

Putting the esoteric aside for a moment ..

One may "magnetize" a screwdriver by repeatedly stroking the blade in one direction only with a strong magnet; I suspect that this method would work on other ferrous objects. I have also run across the occasional piece of restaurant tableware that was magnetized.

Magnet therapy can be useful in alternative medicine.
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Old 6th April 2007, 02:34 PM   #21
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Hi Rick,


True, you can magnetize any object which is constructed from a suitable material and of a suitable geometry. I have noticed that steel sometimes becomes magnetic just from machining it e.g. drilling a hole. I often notice how drill bits become slightly magnetic and yet the material they machined was not. I also believe that magnetism can be produced in a blade just by the way in which you work the steel.
Having said that when I referred to a keris blade being magnetized I actually did not mean common magnetism but a different type of magnetism, perhaps I should have just used the word energized.
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Old 6th April 2007, 02:37 PM   #22
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It is quite simple to activate the magnetic field of a keris. Just hold the tip to a powerful magnet for a few moments. If you then run a compass along it's length you will find that it now have a magnetic "north" and "south" pole. I do with with all my keris as part of a cleansing and re-alignment of energies.
Pusaka, prehaps i've got it backwards. You mention keris blades that are put in the service of a jinn. I had always understood that the jinn are put into the keris to be in the service of the owner of the keris. You sem to imply that the jinn controls the keris.
Likewise i still have trouble wrapping my mind around this concept of the "evil" keris. Why would an empu create a keris that is "evil" and would do it's owner harm? What would be the purpose?
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Old 6th April 2007, 02:42 PM   #23
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Old 6th April 2007, 03:03 PM   #24
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Hi David,


My understanding is that a jinn is not put into a blade i.e. it is not trapped inside of the blade but it has been magnetically linked to the blade through the knowledge of the jinns name. It is the jinn that controls the keris but the jinn may be in the service of the owner.

A bad person will put his wishes into a blade and since the owner is, so the blade will be. The purpose would be to do evil as that is what that owner wishes, such people do exist.
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Old 6th April 2007, 06:52 PM   #25
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Thanks for your response Pusaka.
Yes, it would be the practioners knowledge of the jinn (or any spirit) that would give one power over it, but what do you mean exactly when you say that the jinn controls the keris? In what way? Apart from the owners will?
Certainly there are and have been "evil" people, and they may have used their keris in "evil" ways, both physically and magickally, but i am still not convinced that there are intrinsicly "evil" keris that can or will commit "evil" acts outside of the control of their "evil" masters. This isn't to say that residual energies don't remain in objects weilded by powerful people, but in my paradigm these energies are controllable.
Rick, could you come over...i lost some safty pins behind the seat cushions on my couch...
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Old 6th April 2007, 07:48 PM   #26
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This type of conscious keris is extremely rare, it is the stuff of the keris story’s of Blades that have the ability to move. They move because it is the jinn that moves the blade, the blade literally is alive. This is what I mean when I said the jinn controls the keris, to protect or warn the owner of danger. Most keris which are considered to be alive don’t have jinn but just have an energy field much like a magnet, it does not think or act except through the owners mind.

Jinn can be good or bad just like any spirit, some tend toward goodness whilst others do not. If you were to bind an evil jinn to a keris blade the resultant blade would be bad. The jinn can also whisper to the owners subconscious mind and in that way gain control over a weak minded person, influence dreams etc

If the blade does not have a jinn but was owned by an evil person who used it for doing such things the blade is filthy even if you physically clean it. Its energies being negative will influence those who come into contact with it in a negative way, it may trigger bad thoughts etc.

Last edited by Pusaka : 6th April 2007 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 6th April 2007, 08:44 PM   #27
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Pusaka, have you ever had personal experience with a keris with a jinn or for that matter a keris that had an evil owner that gave you a bad feeling?
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Old 6th April 2007, 08:53 PM   #28
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A keris which has a jinn, I believe that such keris do exist but as said are extremely rare. I don’t have one and if I did I would not keep it, not something I would particularly want.
As for keris from which I got a bad vibe yes I have experienced that.
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Old 6th April 2007, 09:41 PM   #29
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I would be interested in hearing about that experience Pusaka, but i understand if you would rather not share it.
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Old 6th April 2007, 09:54 PM   #30
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Hello to all,

I would like to express my opinion about the mistical side of keris, since my knowledge about the technical side is rather limited, and there are many people in this forum with vast knowledge about the technical side.

First of all, it is not so rare to find a keris with spirit inside.Most of you here in this forum surely possess such a keris,but you don't know it.If a keris is "possesed" by such a spirit, and how strong that spirit is, it has to do with the quality of a keris.I mean that if an empu created a keris for an average farmer, or a king,you surely understand the difference of the aproach.So if you have a keris that is a very good quality,there are many possibilities to have a "resident" inside.

Also very important is for an owner to treat his keris with respect and love,and to feed it regurarly.Don't forget that,like us human,they also have the need for food and good feelings.If you treat your keris with desrespect,and you don't feed it at all,the power will slowly vanished

Also it is rather rare to harm a keris his owner.We humans are above keris,because we have also an actual body,not just spirit as the keris have.It is very important.And don't confuse the metal around the spirit with the "body".In the scale of existance,humans are above spirits such as keris,which are "built" by humans.Just bare in mind that the majority of keris spirits are rather simple in their way of "acting" and "thinking".They had the original order by their empu to protect someone,for example,so they stick to that original order.It's just like the software of your computer.

I don't know if these helped anyone.If someone has an interesting story or information to share,he is more than welcome.

George
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