Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12th November 2017, 10:21 PM   #31
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 986
Default

Hello Jim,

While quite specifically designed for stabbing/punching blows, the Katar in skilled hands can also deliver strong slashing blows. However, the technique is quite specific to the Katar and involves movement of the whole arm, keeping the wrist rigid to maintain the alignment of the blade with the forearm. If during one blow the Katar is taken out of alignment, its use is severely compromised.

You can experiment yourself with a Katar (provinding you can find one that fits your hand as Indians have much smaller hands than Europeans) and after a few moves, you will understand what I mean.

Regards,

Marius
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th November 2017, 11:57 PM   #32
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,985
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

It may be remembered that the katar developed from an earlier form which had an almost gauntlet form hand cover. I suggest it changed into the shorter arm bar version so that it could be pulled faster.lt may have been down to fashion..the long bar style for older statesmen and the short bar type for the young blades at court. I still suspect the short bar form was quicker to deploy.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th November 2017, 11:03 AM   #33
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 986
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
It may be remembered that the katar developed from an earlier form which had an almost gauntlet form hand cover. I suggest it changed into the shorter arm bar version so that it could be pulled faster.lt may have been down to fashion..the long bar style for older statesmen and the short bar type for the young blades at court. I still suspect the short bar form was quicker to deploy.


Quicker to deploy for what, if the Katar was not suitable for fighting?!

Much more likely it had shorter side arms to be more confortable to wear in the sash, as two long protruding side arms would have caused significant disconfort (by interfering with the movement of the left arm).

Last edited by mariusgmioc : 13th November 2017 at 03:17 PM.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th November 2017, 03:30 PM   #34
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,684
Default

Hi Marius,
It would seem you have indeed done some homework on katars, and thank you for the informational prod on the manner of use intended for these unusual style daggers. It has always been a puzzle at just how these transverse grip weapons may have evolved. It has been considered that perhaps evolution from the bladed boss on some shields (which are held with similar grip method or on arm) used in a punching blow; or further on the parrying 'saintie' with two opposing blades and a central forward one, resulting in a central 'push' dagger.

Returning to the original thought here posted by Jens, pertaining to the differences between 'court' and fighting types of katar, you noted, and Jens corrected accordingly, this is a term as embellished it seems as the type of highly decorated katar itself.
Just the same, highly ornate examples, while intended for upper echelon figures were certainly worn in regal settings, and accordingly by key individuals at events and ceremonial occasions.

I do not believe that anyone has suggested that the katar is not a fighting weapon, it most certainly is, but that the highly decorated examples were most often worn in these kinds of circumstances, but not taken on campaign or hunting forays.

As with the 'court' weapon concept in western context, these often much embellished weapons, while considered ostentatious accoutrements in most cases, remained quite able to fulfill their deadly purpose if called upon.
One would never know when subversive action might take place, and such volatility was always a clear and present danger.

The question of impairment in 'deploying' is therefore I think a valid one, and in my opinion , an unusually long side arm guard would be a hindrance much in the way an exceptionally long bladed sword would be in such settings. The notion of variation in the length of side guards seems also a valid note, as such attentions I think are sometimes at play with the weaponry of status, and indeed in some cases, 'size does matter'.
The idea of course needs more research but is worthy of note here as pertains to katars .

Last edited by Jim McDougall : 13th November 2017 at 03:49 PM.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th November 2017, 04:44 PM   #35
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,276
Default

Yes the katar could be used for slashing - at least some of them.
Here is an early description of a katar from my catalogue A Passion for Indian weapons p. 10.

Gustav Oppert, a scholar of ancient Sanskrit manuscripts, offers a reference under the subject Amukta, a description of a weapon,
which is likely to be a katar.
“The Maustika (fist-sword, dagger) has a good hilt, is a span [circa 20-22 cm] long and ornamented. Its end is sharp, it has a high neck15, is broad in the midst and dark coloured.
It can make all sorts of movements, as it is a small and very handy weapon. Its qualities are enlarged upon by Vaisampayana”. In the above quoted text there is a footnote to a Sanskrit text, translated here. “The hilt of the Moushtika is easy to hold and gives a tight grip. Both sides of the hilt are large and with attractive designs. The tip is wide and is sharp and shining. The centre [of the blade] is thick and shining.
It can be held and circled. While turning it, number of points on it can be observed. As with the curve that cows urine makes while falling on the ground, the moushtika can also make similar curves and can be turned. It can be thrust forward and reverse, left and right, zigzag, curvy and also in a circle. It can also be thrown, turned fast and can be thrust to the ground. It can be reversed and struck to the back. We can rotate ourselves [our body] while using it. We can hit from near and hit from a
distance. It shivers, and these are the different methods of using the weapon.
This is the speciality of this weapon, O King.” This was a conversation between someone who was a master of this weapon to the king to whom he was explaining it in 2 parts; firstly its description and then on how to use it.
That the weapon “can make all sorts of movements” is an interesting observation, and the author continues to describe other weapons in a similar way – the kunta [lance] can only be handled in six ways whilst the gada [club] has twenty different motions.

Last edited by Jens Nordlunde : 13th November 2017 at 06:11 PM.
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2017, 09:46 AM   #36
BANDOOK
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 546
Default Here is one from my collection

Hi Jens
Here is a Katar from my collection,when I bought it I was told its from Bundi,Rajasthan but after asking a friend he told me its south Indian and 18 century.Please tell me more about it.
size is 16 inches
Regards
Rajesh
Attached Images
          
BANDOOK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2017, 10:11 AM   #37
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,276
Default

Hi Rajesh,

Your friend is right, It is from Deccan/South India, and it is safe to say 18th century.
The interesting thing is, that these katars from the south, with a curved hilt base either have an even curv or a 'pointed' curv, and this should give us a clue more exactly from where it is - I think, if you can 'read' it. At the moment I cant, but who knows where research will take me.
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2017, 10:18 AM   #38
BANDOOK
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 546
Default

Thanks Jens,my friend is an expert in his own right but prefers to be very low profile,thanks for your comments
many Thanks
Rajesh
BANDOOK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2017, 09:24 PM   #39
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,276
Default

Rajesh,
Please tell me, if you hold the blade, and hid the side guards on wood, does it sound like a tuning fork?
Jens
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2017, 04:41 PM   #40
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member
 
Ibrahiim al Balooshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE
Posts: 3,985
Send a message via MSN to Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BANDOOK
Hi Jens
Here is a Katar from my collection,when I bought it I was told its from Bundi,Rajasthan but after asking a friend he told me its south Indian and 18 century.Please tell me more about it.
size is 16 inches
Regards
Rajesh



Salaams Rajesh, It was inevitable I suppose... but here is the Fleur De Lis decorating an Indian weapon... or is it a split palmette?
Ibrahiim al Balooshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 06:32 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.