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Old 6th November 2016, 07:32 PM   #1
Cerjak
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Default A well decorated cup hilt for comment

A well decorated cup hilt for comment

O.L. 116 cm ; blade L. 97 cm; blade width at hilt 2 cm
Blade stamped Solingen in the 2 sides
Any comment on it would be welcome.
Best
Cerjak
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Old 6th November 2016, 09:06 PM   #2
cornelistromp
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I'm less familiar with cup hilts, the Spanish and Portuguese-speaking members can provide useful Information here.

are the pommel and grip later additions?

best,
jasper
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Old 6th November 2016, 10:24 PM   #3
Jim McDougall
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This is a cup hilt comprised of four shells which seems usually of first half 17thc and both Italian and Spanish convention. The Italian are often with pierced openwork and from Brescia, while the solid and usually chiseled style like this are of course usually Spanish.
Ref:
(AVB Norman, "The Rapier and Small Sword 1400-1820", hilt #83).
also,
"Rapiers" Eric Valentine, No's 35, 36.

On these the pommels are typically oblate, and this may be replacement as suggested by Jasper. Also the wire is likely replacement and it seems Turks Heads are absent as usually seen in these instances.
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Old 8th November 2016, 07:46 PM   #4
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Very similar to mine:

Blade inscribed on one side
TOLEDO XX HEINRICH XX BRACH;

and on the other side
TOLEDO XX HEINRICH XX BRACHO

It appears that your blade also has some inscription. What does it say?
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Old 9th November 2016, 06:06 PM   #5
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Nice rapier

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Old 19th November 2016, 06:33 AM   #6
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[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]This is a cup hilt comprised of four shells which seems usually of first half 17thc and both Italian and Spanish convention. The Italian are often with pierced openwork and from Brescia, while the solid and usually chiseled style like this are of course usually Spanish.

The four-shell construction is rather unusual for the type. I beg to differ on the pierced openwork hilts of Italy, however. Though some examples of this type of craftsmanship do hail from Brescia (Giovan Maria Tonini was a noted cutler from there who made hilts of this style), the cities of Milan and Naples were far ahead in both quality and quantity of output. The ranks of Italian masters of pierced hilts are headed by Lorenzo Palumbo of Naples and Francesco Maria Rivolta of Milan, both flourishing in the third quarter of the 17th cent. See Boccia and Coehlo, ARMI BIANCHE ITALIANE, for near-mint examples of their work in major museum collections in Europe and the US, it is simply breathtaking. Also check out the new digital catalog of the Wallace Collection. The openwork style was imitated elsewhere; according to Oakeshott, inferior imitations were made in Germany in an attempt to cash in on the south European market for these unique weapons.

Interesting that although the Italians are responsible for some of the best quality in this class, they regarded cup hilts as a foreign innovation, calling these rapiers " spade alla spagnola" . They date from a time during which the southern half of Italy was under Spanish rule.
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Old 19th November 2016, 07:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]This is a cup hilt comprised of four shells which seems usually of first half 17thc and both Italian and Spanish convention. The Italian are often with pierced openwork and from Brescia, while the solid and usually chiseled style like this are of course usually Spanish.

The four-shell construction is rather unusual for the type. I beg to differ on the pierced openwork hilts of Italy, however. Though some examples of this type of craftsmanship do hail from Brescia (Giovan Maria Tonini was a noted cutler from there who made hilts of this style), the cities of Milan and Naples were far ahead in both quality and quantity of output. The ranks of Italian masters of pierced hilts are headed by Lorenzo Palumbo of Naples and Francesco Maria Rivolta of Milan, both flourishing in the third quarter of the 17th cent. See Boccia and Coehlo, ARMI BIANCHE ITALIANE, for near-mint examples of their work in major museum collections in Europe and the US, it is simply breathtaking. Also check out the new digital catalog of the Wallace Collection. The openwork style was imitated elsewhere; according to Oakeshott, inferior imitations were made in Germany in an attempt to cash in on the south European market for these unique weapons.

Interesting that although the Italians are responsible for some of the best quality in this class, they regarded cup hilts as a foreign innovation, calling these rapiers " spade alla spagnola" . They date from a time during which the southern half of Italy was under Spanish rule.



Thank you Philip, and I should have not specified Brescia singularly, as I do recognize that not ALL pierced (and very much agreed, beautiful openwork) hilts were from there alone. As you have also well noted, the Italians indeed considered the simple cup hilt a Spanish innovation but naturally, artists that they are, suitably embellished the form.
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Old 21st November 2016, 03:40 PM   #8
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When looking for something different i came across a work LA ESPADA ROPERA ESPAŅOLA EN LOS SIGLOS XVI Y XVII by JOSE MARIA PELAEZ VALLE in that, Spanish masters also put up their share of pierced guards. Another interesting thing is that, contrary to (what i) realized, they also made deep cup bowls; actually so deep that they even call them TAZAS DE HUEVO ( EGG CUPS).

http://gladius.revistas.csic.es/ind...iewFile/127/127


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Old 21st November 2016, 06:20 PM   #9
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This pretty well illustrates the danger in asserting certain features and character of weapon forms to specific regions, especially in the geopolitical circumstances involved between Spain and Italy in these times.
Nicely illustrated!
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Old 28th October 2017, 09:18 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
I'm less familiar with cup hilts, the Spanish and Portuguese-speaking members can provide useful Information here.

are the pommel and grip later additions?

best,
jasper

An exemplar with also a pommel in the shape of a" cork of a champagne bottle"
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Old 28th October 2017, 05:43 PM   #11
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... ? .


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Old 28th October 2017, 06:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
... ? .


.

Ok Fernando ,not really same shape when I see this picture.
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Old 29th October 2017, 01:35 AM   #13
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Default Spanish Cup Hilt Rapier

Spanish Cup Hilt Rapier.
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Old 30th October 2017, 10:48 AM   #14
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Philadelphia Museum of Art: Handbook of the Collections
By the early sixteenth century a European nobleman customarily wore a sword while in civilian dress. To defend his unarmored hands, more protective sword hilts were developed, which, when fitted with a narrow blade intended for thrusting more than cutting, became known as a rapier. This lethal weapon was also the most prominent accessory to a nobleman's costume and therefore was fashionably decorated. By the seventeenth century the use of rapiers was being taught in several styles, or schools, of fencing. The Spanish school favoried a characteristic type of cup-hilted rapier used with a left-handed dagger. It was practiced not only in Spain but also in areas under Spanish rule, such as the Kingdom of Naples and the Duchy of Milan. This ornate example is signed by the Milanese swordmaker Francesco Maria Rivolta. Its sturdy steel cup is chiseled with a swirling floral design that shows the strong influence of contemporary metalwork from Brescia. Cup-hilted rapiers remained popular in Spanish territories until the late eighteenth century, long after the us of rapiers had gone out of fashion elsewhere. Donald J. LaRocca, from Philadelphia Museum of Art: Handbook of the Collections (1995), p. 137.

see the weapon at https://www.philamuseum.org/collect...nent/71707.html
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