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Old 19th October 2017, 03:53 PM   #241
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Old 13th March 2016, 11:47 AM #270

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Amazing !
While (some of) the marks are not totally irecognized, i have never seen such type of hilt. Hopefully some members can say something about both.
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Old 19th October 2017, 03:54 PM   #242
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Old 13th March 2016, 11:51 AM #271

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Originally Posted by fernando
Amazing !
While (some of) the marks are not totally {un?}recognized, i have never seen such type of hilt. Hopefully some members can say something about both.

(i think fernando meant 'unrecognised') (Quote)

yes, i'd noticed the odd hilt myself, can we have a picture of the whole sword please is the end of the pommel peened?
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Old 19th October 2017, 03:54 PM   #243
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Old 13th March 2016, 12:20 PM #272

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Originally Posted by joyfulkitten
I recently had the opportunity to acquire a sword for my collection. I have been unable to identify the marks on the blade. I was told it was German, but some research also points to Sumarian. I have checked all of the entries in this thread, and some of the other threads as well, but have still come up short. Does anyone have an idea of the origins of these marks? (Quote)


Salaams joyfulkitten, Whilst the three obvious marks appear to be sun, moon and stars there is a suggestion of something theatrical in this sword...not least the odd hilt.
What part do you suggest has Sumerian link?... The vaguely anchor shaped mark ?..perhaps that is where you link Sumerian since dagger hilts were roughly that shape but it is not something I would rely upon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 19th October 2017, 03:54 PM   #244
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Old 13th March 2016, 03:57 PM #273

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Hi JK,
I see you have done some most interesting research on this unusual item, and am most curious as well on the Sumerian association. Other than the extremely ancient Mesopotamian civilization , or the Cimmerians who lived much later, I think only of the well known movies of 'Conan the Barbarian'.
While the 'theatrical nature' of this item seems well placed, it does not seem to correspond to props in that film.

The markings are indeed a most interesting mélange of some used in various contexts by German makers of 17th and 18th centuries A.D.
I think the 'anchor' type mark resembles similar seen on blades from Valencia, Spain in the 16th into 17th c. A.D.
The sun and moon were cosmological symbols used on blades in Germany and East Europe in the 17th-18th c. as mentioned.
The stars were added embellishments in these contexts.
The grouping of these symbols, while not particularly well executed, seems most interesting on a theatrical sword as these kinds of details are not usually added.

You noted that this item was added to your collection, may I ask what type of swords or edged weapons do you collect?
.

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Old 19th October 2017, 03:55 PM   #245
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Old 13th March 2016, 05:34 PM #274

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i guess it might be possible for a 19c theatrical reproduction to use an old blade with stamps and a new grip/guard like that for stage use. i've seen worse that have been used in major and recent films for massed troops at a distance the details are no longer relevant. especially if it once was tarted up with a lick of gold paint and maybe a taped 'leather' grip

i cannot envision any reason they would make a new one with small stamps that could not be seen from the audience.

again, more pics would help.
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Old 19th October 2017, 03:55 PM   #246
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Old 13th March 2016, 08:49 PM #275

Posted by:
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Originally Posted by kronckew
i guess it might be possible for a 19c theatrical reproduction to use an old blade with stamps and a new grip/guard like that for stage use. i've seen worse that have been used in major and recent films for massed troops at a distance the details are no longer relevant. especially if it once was tarted up with a lick of gold paint and maybe a taped 'leather' grip

i cannot envision any reason they would make a new one with small stamps that could not be seen from the audience.

again, more pics would help. (Quote)


It is true that in the theater, often old blades could be dolled up for use by adding more appropriate hilts. Optimistically we might hope that to be the case here, but quite honestly these markings do not seem in character with blades regularly seen in trade or colonial native circumstances.

It is often amazing how often artifacts with weapons in particular have been presumed of earlier periods, but later determined to be such stage creations.

Interestingly, in California, the old movie studios in their labyrinths of sets, props and costumes often warehoused these from silent film days into the 1980s. When they 'decaccessed' these it was amazing how many actual early weapons were used in these films. This is likely the reason that Rudolph Valentino was an avid sword collector (not sure of others) as these were so available to him.

Alternatively, often times old swords either intact or refurbished became ceremonial or Tyler's sword in Freemason lodges.

Always lots of possibilities, and as noted, from photos it is really difficult to determine more so other views would help.
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Old 19th October 2017, 03:56 PM   #247
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Old 14th March 2016, 01:44 AM #276

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Thanks for your information everyone. Here is some of the information requested. The Sumarian link was from some research about the hilt shape. My collection is primarily knives and daggers, I am not as familiar with swords and their details. The marks were very confusing. I found similarities to each from across cultures. However, I could not find anything that looked identical to any one, let alone the combination.
I think the idea of it being a theatrical blade is a good one. There is something about the entirety of the piece that leans that way.vDoes anyone know how I can confirm that, so I can research what it may have been created for?
I tried to put a picture of the entire blade up, but the size is too big, I had to cut it down to just the hilt to get it to upload.
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Old 19th October 2017, 03:56 PM   #248
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Old 14th March 2016, 09:48 AM #277

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Originally Posted by joyfulkitten
Thanks for your information everyone. Here is some of the information requested. The Sumarian link was from some research about the hilt shape. My collection is primarily knives and daggers, I am not as familiar with swords and their details. The marks were very confusing. I found similarities to each from across cultures. However, I could not find anything that looked identical to any one, let alone the combination.
I think the idea of it being a theatrical blade is a good one. There is something about the entirety of the piece that leans that way.vDoes anyone know how I can confirm that, so I can research what it may have been created for?
I tried to put a picture of the entire blade up, but the size is too big, I had to cut it down to just the hilt to get it to upload. (Quote)



Salaams JK, I see what you mean and show a Sumerian dagger hilt. I suggest that this likeness in the blade stamp is purely co incidental and posit that the theatrical nature of the weapon is more likely.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

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Old 19th October 2017, 03:56 PM   #249
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Old 14th March 2016, 11:40 AM #278

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Originally Posted by joyfulkitten
... I tried to put a picture of the entire blade up, but the size is too big, I had to cut it down to just the hilt to get it to upload. (Quote)

If you don't know of any resizing programs, like this one:

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/...ppowertoys.mspx

You may exceptionally send the pictures to me and i will resize them and upload them for you.
fernando@vikingsword.com
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Old 19th October 2017, 03:57 PM   #250
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Old 23rd July 2016, 04:49 PM #279

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Originally Posted by fernando
They also call this symbol a christogram. (Quote)

This Nomen Sacrum IHS derives from the transkription of the first two and the last letter of the Greek name of Jesus - Iota-Eta-Sigma-Omikron-Ypsilon-Sigma or ΙΗΣΟΥΣ, = JESUS. The I is the Greek Iota, the H = Eta and the S = Sigma. So it has nothing to do with the Jesuit-association.
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Old 19th October 2017, 03:57 PM   #251
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Old 23rd July 2016, 06:28 PM #280

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Was i so distant, Corrado ?

"The JHS or IHS monogram of the name of Jesus (or traditional Christogram symbol of western Christianity), derived from the first three letters of the Greek name of Jesus, Iota-Eta-Sigma (ΙΗΣΟΥΣ). Partly based on memories of church decorations. Has some degree of resemblance to a portion of the emblem of the Jesuits, due to common medieval influences (see Feast of the Holy Name of Jesus), but is not exactly the same, nor intended to be so."
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Old 19th October 2017, 03:59 PM   #252
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Old 24th July 2016, 06:52 AM #281

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No, you have been quite near. I just wanted to show the origin of this abbriviation and it was not my intention to criticise.
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Old 19th October 2017, 03:59 PM   #253
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Old 24th July 2016, 07:54 AM #282

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further to that: it's one of the earliest christian decorations. , Ichthys was the offspring of the ancient sea goddess Atargatis, so was a perfect secret cover symbol.

from the writings of the immortal god of knowledge, wikipedia:

The ichthys or ichthus (/ˈɪkθəs, from the Greek ikhthýs (ἰχθύς, "fish"), is a symbol consisting of two intersecting arcs, the ends of the right side extending beyond the meeting point so as to resemble the profile of a fish. It was used by early Christians as a secret Christian symbol and now known colloquially as the "sign of the fish" or the "Jesus fish".

ΙΧΘΥΣ (Ichthus) is a backronym/acrostic for "Ίησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ", (Iēsous Christos, Theou Yios, Sōtēr), which translates into English as "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour".

Iota (i) is the first letter of Iēsous (Ἰησοῦς), Greek for "Jesus".
Chi (ch) is the first letter of Christos (Χριστός), Greek for "anointed".
Theta (th) is the first letter of Theou (Θεοῦ), Greek for "God's", the genitive case of Θεóς, Theos, Greek for "God".
Upsilon (y) is the first letter of (h)uios (Υἱός), Greek for "Son".
Sigma (s) is the first letter of sōtēr (Σωτήρ), Greek for "Savior".

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Old 19th October 2017, 04:00 PM   #254
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Old 24th July 2016, 10:37 AM #283

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Originally Posted by corrado26
No, you have been quite near. I just wanted to show the origin of this abbriviation and it was not my intention to criticise.
corrado26 (Quote)

I took it like a correction, not a criticism ... and i saw nothing wrong with that .
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Old 19th October 2017, 04:00 PM   #255
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Old 27th July 2016, 12:01 AM #284

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ICHTHYOPHAGI...Means land of the fish eaters...and was applied by Ptolomy the great map maker at Alexandria..See the map below where it is inscribed across what is now The UAE, Mussandam and part of Oman.

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Old 19th October 2017, 04:00 PM   #256
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Old 27th July 2016, 07:51 AM #285

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early version of "beware - beyond be monsters and the lands of the animal headed cannibals".


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Old 19th October 2017, 04:01 PM   #257
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Old 27th July 2016, 08:05 PM #286

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Corrado, thank you so much for the additional notes on the IHS symbol, and Fernando for your further explained observations on same.
It seems there are key dynamics associated with this three letter symbol, known as noted as the Christogram, which help us better understand its possible intention as used in marking weapons.
To add to Wayne's well detailed notes.

In early times, scribes often abbreviated Jesus' name with the two first letters of his name , or the first and last, with a line over the letters.
The Greek letters Chi (as with 'x') and Rho (as with P) abbreviated, were often used (Christ) as well.

Also, I (iota) and H (eta) first two letters for Jesus (early alphabets saw the I as J.

By the 2nd century, the S (sigma) was also added thus rendering IHS.

These Christograms were used as secret codes used on tombs, door posts etc. to designate one as Christian.

By the 15th century St. Bernadine of Sienna and his student St. John of Capistrano used the Christogram in preaching missions, and in Italy often used wood placards with surround of rays with IHS. The devout were encouraged to use this monogram in place of their own family crests etc. Pope Martin in 1427 asked for cross to be added.

However, by these times, the use and knowledge of Greek was in decline, and Latin predominated leading to the misperception that IHS represented
Iesus Hominum Salvator.
In the following years, this Christogram became added often into the motif on sword blades, known to used for example by Caino in Italy, and of course followed in suit by many others and across Europe,

Ibrahiim and Wayne, thank you for these keynote examples of the cartography of these times, which truly add perspective and better understanding of temporal attitudes and superstitions often held.
It is easy to understand how these kinds of religious and talismanic devices and symbols became legion on weaponry given the perils in warfare as well as perceived supernatural forces.
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Old 19th October 2017, 04:01 PM   #258
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Default IN HOC SIGNO VINCES

Old 28th July 2016, 06:52 AM #287

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Battle of the Milvian Bridge

legend has it that just before the battle emperor constatine had a vision (from God) and had his legionnaires paint the chi-rho on their shields, and won the battle tho outnumbered. the 'vision' story, and the chi-rho on shields is likely not true, it's not mentioned until much later than the battle by christian scholars. constantine did convert to christianity, from the monotheistic sol invictus religion* & was the first to allow christianity as well as the traditional gods. ch-rho was thereafter popular theme on legionary tombstones and caskets.

*this is why the christian sabbath is on SUNday.

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Old 19th October 2017, 04:02 PM   #259
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Old 28th July 2016, 06:31 PM #288

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Originally Posted by kronckew
*this is why the christian sabbath is on SUN DAY. (Quote)

From when such day, originally called Dies Sole, due to it been a day for Pagans gathering, was changed to Dies Dominus (day of the Lord), declared the first day of the week. But i bet you don't know why in Portugal the rest of the week days have an exclusive nomenclature, decided by a Church big shot .

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Old 19th October 2017, 04:02 PM   #260
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Old 28th July 2016, 06:47 PM #289

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monday=Segunda-feira
tuesday=terça-feira
thursday=quinta-feira
friday=Sexta-feira
saturday=sábado
sunday=domingo

boring workdays seem to be numerical, the weekend days are liturgical, saturday was the old sabbath day, sunday is in the church's minds, the lord's day (dominus), and thus the first day, which is why monday is segunda.

feira=market, so i guess that the weekdays are market days, that is 'working' days where the people generally did not have the time to get into religious trouble, as opposed to the licentious weekends where they needed tha firm hand of the church's guidance to keep them in line.

us heretics, however, still honour the old gods.
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Old 19th October 2017, 04:02 PM   #261
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Old 28th July 2016, 09:10 PM #290

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Ah, ah .
You missed wednesday=quarta-feira, by the way.
The whole thing started in the year 563, when a church concilium was held in the Portuguese city of Braga. Bishop Martinho was the one that decided on naming the days in such way. Feira, first of all,comes from feria=resting (holiday). Contrary to one's perplexity that week days are for working and not for rest, the bishop's original idea was only to apply those names to the Holy Week, but later common people vulgarized the norm and attributed it to the whole year. Therefore the first day being Domingo, the next is segunda (second) feira, then terça (third) feira and so on.
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Old 19th October 2017, 04:03 PM   #262
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Old 4th August 2016, 09:03 PM #291

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Does anybody recognize this mark?

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Old 19th October 2017, 04:03 PM   #263
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Old 4th August 2016, 09:51 PM #292

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Originally Posted by blue lander
Does anybody recognize this mark? (Quote)


What sort of blade is this on?
Unusual to see this kind of cartouche on tang rather than blade.
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Old 19th October 2017, 04:05 PM   #264
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Old 4th August 2016, 09:52 PM #293

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Yes, it should be interesting to see the whole blade.
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Old 19th October 2017, 04:05 PM   #265
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Old 5th August 2016, 08:58 PM #294

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It is indeed an interesting blade which I unfortunately did not win the auction for

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Old 19th October 2017, 04:06 PM   #266
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Old 6th August 2016, 07:41 AM #295

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Originally Posted by blue lander
It is indeed an interesting blade which I unfortunately did not win the auction for (Qote)

Interesting court dagger?... Probably European perhaps Louis XV1 ? Is there more information at the throat... ?
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Old 19th October 2017, 04:06 PM   #267
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Old 6th August 2016, 08:47 AM #296

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Originally Posted by blue lander
It is indeed an interesting blade which I unfortunately did not win the auction for (Quote)


Hi Blue Lander,

I would be not to regretful, in my opinion that blade is a shortened sword blade of a late 18th C military officers sword.
Just look how the fuller runs trough right to the end , on this type of blade it should stop before the end, more or less two third of the blade length.
The edges on the side of the fuller are sharpened.
Also the length of the ricasso would be totally out of proportion.
Here is a sword with a similar type of blade.

kind regards

Ulfberth

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Old 19th October 2017, 04:06 PM   #268
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Old 6th August 2016, 07:58 PM #297

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Well caught Ulfberht!!
That looks exactly like what this is. It of course begs the question, why was this cut down? While we know that Scottish sword hilts were often cut down to become dirks. In India of course, the well known instances and practice of cutting down European blades to be used in katars are legion.

In Africa, French cavalry blades were constantly the fodder for the native swords of Mali, and others. By the same token French bayonets became well used as s'boula and other dagger forms.

But in Europe, blades being repurposed in these manners seems atypical, so could this have been an ethnographically repurposed at some time, then at some point, the hilt removed or come apart?

Finding that cartouche is of interest also, and seems familiar, perhaps Bezdek et al ?
.

Last edited by fernando : 20th October 2017 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 19th October 2017, 04:07 PM   #269
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Old 7th August 2016, 06:27 AM #298

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ulfberth
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True Jim,

In Europe the re use of broken blades is seen more often up until the 17th C, broken rapier or sword blades used to make daggers was a rule rather than throwing them away. After that period you hardly find any military re used blades in Europe , could it be that these were sold for export ?
What we do find is all kinds of military equipment that got a second life by farmers. The French Napoleonic muskets left on the battle fields were converted for hunting use, the barrel and the wood shortened.
Bayonets and swords to slaughter cattle and many, many German helmets used to scoop, water, grains or other stuff on farms.
My grandfather had several metal English ammunition boxes that he used as tool boxes.
Back to the dagger or sword blade, its hard to determine for what it was re used again, an take in consideration that it could be used to make a composite weapon.

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Old 19th October 2017, 04:07 PM   #270
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Old 7th August 2016, 12:26 PM #299

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Originally Posted by ulfberth
... The French Napoleonic muskets left on the battle fields were converted for hunting use, the barrel and the wood shortened... (Quote)

Oh yes,
Blunderbusses adapted by regional smiths from salvaged musket parts, from the Peninsular War, are countless.
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