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Old 7th October 2017, 06:09 AM   #1
Paul de Souza
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Default The Issue of Ivory

I just heard on the BBC a moment ago that the UK is planning a complete ban on ivory. This ban is universal and will also cover antique ivory even if certified to be before 1987.

Some the best keris have ivory ukiran/hulu or buntut. Actually for many quality Peninsular / Sumatra pieces, it is hard to exclude ivory. Also the finest Madura and North Java hilts I have seen are in ivory. Then there are Bali keris too with their ukiran and wrankra. I don't think Solo and Jogja uses much ivory.

Would old work now be destroyed?

How would other forms of "ivory" be affected - Marine, Hippo, Walrus etc. Honestly I can't really tell the difference. (I remember there were threads on different types of ivory but I have not looked them up yet.)

What is your opinion on this?

I hope I am not repeating an old thread.
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Old 7th October 2017, 07:40 AM   #2
colin henshaw
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Yes, it seems there will be a complete ban on the buying and selling of ivory of any age in the UK, according to the media. With some small exceptions - quote sales to and between museums, musical instruments, items containing only a small amount of ivory, and items of significant historical, cultural or artistic value unquote. This is from the "Daily Telegraph" 6.10.17.
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Old 7th October 2017, 07:42 AM   #3
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The UK government has entered a consultation period on the issue of ivory sales, so now is the time for UK dealers and collectors to make their voices heard through their local MPs. I don't think there is yet any attempt to require old ivory pieces to be destroyed but the sale of nearly all ivory items would be banned.
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Old 7th October 2017, 08:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul de Souza
Would old work now be destroyed?

I don't really know much about this new UK ban you are mentioning, but it sounds like it is a ban of ivory commerce. It does not seem like old work with be confiscated and destroyed as far as i can logically determine. If you own ivory in your personally collection it can probably remain there. I doubt the "ivory police" are going to show up at your house and destroy it nor do i suspect that authorities will raid museum collections to do the same. Yes, it does suck if you would like to acquire an ivory keris or sell one from your collection. It does seem ridiculous that ivory that is certified as pre-CITES (or what ever gage they are using to date it) or antique should be affected and hopefully if collectors and dealers make enough of a fuss something can be amended in this ban that would permit the sale of old carved ivory artifacts.
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Old 7th October 2017, 09:56 PM   #5
A. G. Maisey
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Ivory and the attitude of some people towards ivory has become a problem.

This latest UK initiative seems to have been generated by a couple of factors additional to the ever vocal Tree Huggers and so-called "Conservationists".

The UK is now the biggest exporter of legal ivory in the world, and there is ivory laundering activity that appears to be able to take advantage of the legal trade in ivory.

China has already taken action that will eventually see the public ivory market in China collapse.

Then there is the fact that in 2018 the UK will be hosting a very important conference on the illegal wildlife trade. If that conference were to take place in a country that still had a legal domestic trade in ivory, it might be seen by some as a somewhat embarrassing situation.

So, we have a proposal for a total ban on the trade in ivory.

As with all attempted total bans, this ban will only handicap those in the public market place, those who are compelled to abide by the written law.

When any ban is attempted on any thing for which there is still a demand, the result is absolutely foreseeable:- the sale of these banned commodities goes underground, demand increases, prices rise.

Total bans are evidence of total stupidity, stupidity which is perhaps the result of a deficiency of an understanding of history.

The answer to the ivory conundrum lays in effective management, not in ineffective rules and regulations.
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Old 7th October 2017, 10:42 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertGuy
The UK government has entered a consultation period on the issue of ivory sales, so now is the time for UK dealers and collectors to make their voices heard through their local MPs. I don't think there is yet any attempt to require old ivory pieces to be destroyed but the sale of nearly all ivory items would be banned.


To wit:
https://committeeforculturalpolicy....ory-repository/
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Old 8th October 2017, 07:21 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick


This happens when idiocy rules!

We replaced normality and common sense with rules made by idiots and enforced by idiots. And unfortunately this trend can easily be seen in all aspects of our society.
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Old 8th October 2017, 08:12 AM   #8
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Yep.

I spent a lot of my life ensuring that rules fitting Marius' comments did in fact function effectively.

I've seen the bad joke from the inside.
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Old 8th October 2017, 08:43 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
This happens when idiocy rules!

We replaced normality and common sense with rules made by idiots and enforced by idiots. And unfortunately this trend can easily be seen in all aspects of our society.


Wise words!
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Old 8th October 2017, 04:34 PM   #10
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Old 8th October 2017, 05:16 PM   #11
Tim Simmons
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I could and will agree with all that has been said. However ivory is just another material like plastic except natural. The situation could promote a deeper appreciation of other materials or what we see as art and I have to say it what we believe to be " high end " a ghastly term. Some of the ivory "high end " is not worked in any remarkable art way, the only value is because people have been led to believe in the value. This is now going to change like many fashions and ideas in history. Sorry if it adds to the upset.
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Old 8th October 2017, 05:50 PM   #12
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Unhappy Shotgun Laws

Is it ironic that even Mammoth ivory falls under this proscription?
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Old 8th October 2017, 11:26 PM   #13
A. G. Maisey
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You may well be right Tim.

However, ivory has been a part of the Human Experience for tens of thousands of years. I rather feel that an appreciation of ivory is locked firmly into the sub-conscious of many people, and that this inherited attitude crosses the boundaries of culture and society.

Can a momentary change in societal attitudes affect the heritage of the Human Experience?

Personally, I doubt that it can.

There may be a hiatus in the use and appreciation of ivory, a hiatus that will surely come to an end.

When the pendulum swings too far one way, it has nowhere to go except to swing back again, and eventually it comes to rest in the centre.

As this applies to ivory, perhaps during the Colonial Era there was an over-use of ivory, perhaps this overuse continued past the time when it could be supported, the result was that the pendulum swung too far into the range of use. Now we have the probably predictable reaction of well intentioned people, and the pendulum is on the verge of swinging too far into the range of non-use. Eventually that pendulum will commence to swing back to the range of use, and after an even longer period of time it will come to rest within the range of acceptable use.

All things pass, including the idiocy of well intentioned but badly misguided Tree Huggers.

In the meantime, opportunities are being presented for those who are prepared to ignore regulation to increase their wealth.

Total bans do nothing but encourage criminal activity.

Adequate control and management is a better option.
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Old 9th October 2017, 06:54 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Total bans do nothing but encourage criminal activity.



Hello Alan,

I believe this is a well known fact that was so well illustrated and proven by the US experience during the prohibition years, when not only that criminal gangs flourished, but even alcohol consumption increased.

Yet, it appers that our law makers are so idiotic they either don't know, or they ignore this.

That's why I believe that our societies are slowly but steadily turning into Kafkian idiocracies.

PS: I wish I share your optimism illustrated by your pendulum example...

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Old 10th October 2017, 01:11 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick
Is it ironic that even Mammoth ivory falls under this proscription?

There has been a rise for the tusker industry. Made more ironic that a lot of Napoleonic European and British use of ivory was being mainly supplied by the old ivory mines and little, if any, African or Asian elephant ivory. The supply was vast for the stuff and had been available for decades.

Perhaps as disturbing will be any bone then being as restricted. Then any digging for artifacts of any age. Then collections of anything aside from ration stamps.

Cheers

GC
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Old 10th October 2017, 07:34 PM   #16
Martin Lubojacky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Ivory and the attitude of some people towards ivory has become a problem.

This latest UK initiative seems to have been generated by a couple of factors additional to the ever vocal Tree Huggers and so-called "Conservationists".

The UK is now the biggest exporter of legal ivory in the world, and there is ivory laundering activity that appears to be able to take advantage of the legal trade in ivory.

China has already taken action that will eventually see the public ivory market in China collapse.

Then there is the fact that in 2018 the UK will be hosting a very important conference on the illegal wildlife trade. If that conference were to take place in a country that still had a legal domestic trade in ivory, it might be seen by some as a somewhat embarrassing situation.

So, we have a proposal for a total ban on the trade in ivory.

As with all attempted total bans, this ban will only handicap those in the public market place, those who are compelled to abide by the written law.

When any ban is attempted on any thing for which there is still a demand, the result is absolutely foreseeable:- the sale of these banned commodities goes underground, demand increases, prices rise.

Total bans are evidence of total stupidity, stupidity which is perhaps the result of a deficiency of an understanding of history.

The answer to the ivory conundrum lays in effective management, not in ineffective rules and regulations.


Please, which action did China take ? To ban old artifacts containing ivory is even bigger stupidity in the light of the fact that the CITES rules are kept in practice by minor part of the world (as far as population is concerned; - I donīt mean only China). It is whistling in the wind and making problems to ordinary people. So, if there was "action in China", maybe also the positive winds of change are blowing ...
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Old 10th October 2017, 10:01 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotspur
There has been a rise for the tusker industry. Made more ironic that a lot of Napoleonic European and British use of ivory was being mainly supplied by the old ivory mines and little, if any, African or Asian elephant ivory. The supply was vast for the stuff and had been available for decades.

Perhaps as disturbing will be any bone then being as restricted. Then any digging for artifacts of any age. Then collections of anything aside from ration stamps.

Cheers

GC


I guess I don't get out much, Glen; I was unaware it had been mined for so long.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/g...ple-in-pictures
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Old 11th October 2017, 09:10 AM   #18
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From Mowbray's eagle pommel title re ivory. It has been pointed out to me that he likely really means mammoth.
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