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Old 13th December 2017, 03:29 PM   #1
Foxbat
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Default Boar sword cross bar

I would like to replicate the cross bar for a boar hunting sword. I have seen pictures of such swords with the bar installed, but would like to know the exact construction details. One can certainly come up with multitude of ideas, but I would like to know the authentic one.

Does anyone have such a complete sword, so he could post pictures?
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Old 13th December 2017, 04:14 PM   #2
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Is this an old blade, Foxbat ?
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Old 13th December 2017, 04:15 PM   #3
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Yes.
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Old 13th December 2017, 04:17 PM   #4
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Would you know how old ?
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Old 13th December 2017, 04:38 PM   #5
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16th century.
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Old 13th December 2017, 07:00 PM   #6
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Old 13th December 2017, 08:16 PM   #7
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The link, unfortunately, is not working for me.
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Old 13th December 2017, 09:06 PM   #8
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Did you mean to say 'boar spear'? I have never heard of a boar sword (not being sarcastic here!). I'll have to look it up-
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Old 13th December 2017, 09:15 PM   #9
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Boar swords were quite common in the 16th and early 17th centuries in Europe. Unlike the boar spears they sported sword hilts, usually in the typical for that period styles, like this one.

The term is less popular, but if you do a search on it, you will find them. Here, for instance:

http://karabela-arms.com/index.php?...&product_id=114

Often simply called Hunting Swords.

Here's the typical example of that class of weapons.
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Old 13th December 2017, 11:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew


Came home and found that book on my shelf... but it doesn't show much, unfortunately. A couple of pictures of cross bard, not clear how exactly made.
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Old 14th December 2017, 08:32 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat
I would like to replicate the cross bar for a boar hunting sword. I have seen pictures of such swords with the bar installed, but would like to know the exact construction details. One can certainly come up with multitude of ideas, but I would like to know the authentic one.

Does anyone have such a complete sword, so he could post pictures?



Hello,

this is a so called German "Sauschwert" (sow sword) and here is the only picture of the spines I can find.


Roland
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Old 14th December 2017, 09:23 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat
The link, unfortunately, is not working for me.


I've seen a modern recreation of the boar sword sketched above by an experimental historian. Apparently the cross piece was made to be removable, possibly screwing together, rectangular on the main piece to fit the slot and prevent rotation, but drilled & tapped for a mating screw on the opposing arm. Each had a shoulder behind the bit that went through the slot to hold it from both sides. Unfortunately there was no pic of it unattached to the blade.

Screen dump: for those of us without the whole book and a picture of the crossbar on the original museum piece at
https://guywindsor.net/blog/2016/10...-swords-me-too/
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Old 14th December 2017, 01:43 PM   #13
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In any case, it appears rather difficult to spot one of these swords complete with their cross bar, worse a technical description of these devices, even worse that there is more that one system; although certainly not the 'horn' like version, in the discussed case. Cross bars or 'travincas' (as we call them here) made of wood and bone were materials already used in prior hunting spears (ascumas), in a manner that they were firmly binded to shafts, as scabbards didn't take place to conflict with. It seems more consistent that steel (iron) was a material that prevailed in hunting swords when cross bars started their appearance in the XVI century. We can see that when Emperor Maximilian in 1526 ordered a set of miniature paintings, only one of the five huntsmen had a cross bar fitted in his sword.
Foxbat's splendid example has some similarities, at least in what concerns the orifice for the cross bar, with those in Wallace Colection (plate 115); the author assuming how the (missing) cross bar was usually secured; somehow consistent with the right hand sketch in the above linked work.


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Old 14th December 2017, 01:47 PM   #14
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Thank you so much! The idea of tapping the parts was one of the first, that crossed my mind, but I put it on hold due to the fact, that I wasn't sure how common the screw threads were back in early 16th century.

I really wish people at Met would let me handle theirs.

I have seen the picture in Fernando's post, one appears to have the spring on top, that latches the bar in, the spring idea is also on the table at this time.
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Old 14th December 2017, 02:26 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat
Thank you so much! The idea of tapping the parts was one of the first, that crossed my mind, but I put it on hold due to the fact, that I wasn't sure how common the screw threads were back in early 16th century.

I really wish people at Met would let me handle theirs.

I have seen the picture in Fernando's post, one appears to have the spring on top, that latches the bar in, the spring idea is also on the table at this time.


screws and pin fastenings were known and laboriously hand filed, as were small intricate gears in pre-christian greece/rome. common metal screws were 16c, contemporary with the sword. many wheel lock firearms used them, and accurate screw cutting lathes were invented late 18c.

there's a lot of ancient technology that was lost and we are still rediscovering it. like roman concrete used to build the coliseum and the pantheon, which sets underwater and gets stronger with age, not weaker like our 'modern' version. our's barely lasts a couple decades. the unreinforced dome of the pantheon in rome has lasted for almost 2000 years, having only needed some minor repairs in 200a.d. after a quake. we only recently found clay and bimetallic batteries we think were used in pre-christian turkey to electroplate stuff. and so it continues... the 'ancients' were just as smart and crafty as we are. and a lot more brutal.

you could always try the royal armoury at leeds, uk. they may have one they could photograph for you if you ask them nicely.

the facebook page of their affiliated association is at https://www.facebook.com/groups/498926490154772/

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Old 14th December 2017, 02:37 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
screws were known and laboriously hand filed, as were small intricate gears in pre-christian greece/rome. common metal screws were 16c and accurate screw cutting lathes were invented late 18c.


Thread-cutting machine tools - yes, later, and yes, the screw thread can be cut by hand, but the internal, female one requires a tap of some kind.

I presume these developments have been studied and documented, I would be curious to see them.
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Old 14th December 2017, 02:52 PM   #17
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Courtesy Michael Trömner (Matchlock)

.
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Old 14th December 2017, 02:55 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat
Thread-cutting machine tools - yes, later, and yes, the screw thread can be cut by hand, but the internal, female one requires a tap of some kind.

I presume these developments have been studied and documented, I would be curious to see them.


a tap is just a hardened screw with lengthwise channels cut in it for the shavings. as i mentioned, the male screws in wheel locks would have engaged matching tapped female ones. they would not have made individual screws with a file. they'd make a tap, then drill a hole, tap it and cut channels inside or drill holes partly overlapping the threaded hole to make a die. then harden it, and then make zillions of screws with the die, and tap zillions of holes with the tap, all closely matching & mating (till the taps & dies wore down, then they'd make new ones)

the spring bar latching one would be easier to make. they don't need to be particularly tight and immoveable to work as intended as long as they don't easily come off.

here's some we made earlier (my uncle was a master tool and die maker)
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Old 14th December 2017, 03:07 PM   #19
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Yes, I know what the tap is, I have tons of them in my workshop. I guess my question is - if it is generally understood that a nut-and-bolt pair was not uncommon in the early 16th century, then this approach can be viable. However, generally speaking, screws on weapons became common in the 18th century - usually attaching the guard to the pommel.

In reality I might make two versions, one with the screw, and the other one with the spring.
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Old 14th December 2017, 03:13 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat
Yes, I know what the tap is, I have tons of them in my workshop. I guess my question is - if it is generally understood that a nut-and-bolt pair was not uncommon in the early 16th century, then this approach can be viable. However, generally speaking, screws on weapons became common in the 18th century - usually attaching the guard to the pommel.

In reality I might make two versions, one with the screw, and the other one with the spring.



be creative & don't forget to post photos these swords are i gather, rather uncommon and those with crossbars even more so.

p.s. if you look at a tap and die set with shaving channels that match the width of the cutting teeth on the matching piece, you can see where some bright spark figured out the interrupted thread breech used on artillery breech loaders and even bolt action rifles and some automatics mid 19c and to now.
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Old 14th December 2017, 03:36 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat
Thread-cutting machine tools - yes, later, and yes, the screw thread can be cut by hand, but the internal, female one requires a tap of some kind.

I presume these developments have been studied and documented, I would be curious to see them.



"but the internal, female one requires a tap of some kind."

As a former lathe machinist, I often made female threads only with my lathe, this is really no big problem. All you need is a special lathe chisel for female threads.

In the old days every tiny manufactory had its own system for screw threads, which was always an enourmous problem, if one of the two parts got lost far away from the company or after the end of the company.
There were absolutely no norms, no DIN or ISO, nothing like that.


Roland
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Old 14th December 2017, 04:08 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland_M
"but the internal, female one requires a tap of some kind."

As a former lathe machinist, I often made female threads only with my lathe, this is really no big problem. All you need is a special lathe chisel for female threads.

Roland


Same here. I have a lathe, plus other machine tools, in my basement - use them as great relaxation tool! I have cut internal threads, but only in fairly large diameter holes - 1/2" at least, for anything smaller I use taps.

Here's part of my basement. One of the challenges here is to make the part not look like it was made on a CNS mill. I have some experience making parts that look old for some restoration projects.
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Old 14th December 2017, 05:32 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat
... I have a lathe, plus other machine tools, in my basement - use them as great relaxation tool! ...

Rather huge and nice facility, that of yours. Mine is more on the space saving mode, cohabiting with groceries and other stuff .

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Old 14th December 2017, 06:08 PM   #24
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My wife would arrange the swap in a second, she keeps giving me hard time over the order in my shop.

I am not going to show her your picture.
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Old 14th December 2017, 06:18 PM   #25
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You could always disencourage her, by advancing that she would start disputing the sugar can place with that of the screw drivers .
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Old 14th December 2017, 06:22 PM   #26
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Mine is smaller than Fernando's. the kitchen and dining room table are my work areas, hand tools hidden in closets and drawers wherever there is room. only powered tools are a dremel and a worksharp linisher. there is a 'man cave' workshop in the community centre just across the road from me i can use, they have some power tools, drill press, band and table saws, sanders, grindstone, etc. i'd prefer a lathe, milling machine, forge, power hammer and a real full sized slack belt sander/linisher.
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Old 14th December 2017, 06:30 PM   #27
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I feel your pain! When we were looking for a house, my requirement was full size basement. We were lucky to find it. But I am a hoarder, so there is stuff everywhere.
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Old 14th December 2017, 07:14 PM   #28
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By the way, Foxbat ...
Can you show us your entire sword ... without the cross bar, of course ?
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Old 14th December 2017, 07:26 PM   #29
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Here is the seller's picture, I don't have it yet, it is on its way.
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Old 14th December 2017, 07:49 PM   #30
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Wow ... what an impressive beast !!!
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