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Old 24th August 2017, 07:33 AM   #1
Kubur
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Default Old Ottoman daggers

Hi Guys,

I'm very interested by old Ottoman daggers.
In particular this kind of dagger.
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=133
Oriental arms said 18th or earlier and the one in the Hermitage collection is from the 16th c.
Any ideas, other examples or comments?
More than the grip, I'm interested by the blade...
Thanks

Kubur
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Old 24th August 2017, 08:13 AM   #2
estcrh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Hi Guys,

I'm very interested by old Ottoman daggers.
In particular this kind of dagger.
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=133
Oriental arms said 18th or earlier and the one in the Hermitage collection is from the 16th c.
Any ideas, other examples or comments?
More than the grip, I'm interested by the blade...
Thanks

Kubur
I do not trust the Hermitage collections descriptions, wonder how they dated it?

Here is a jambiya I got from Artzi, this type are said to be Ottoman Albanian, walrus hilt, wootz blade, 20 inches (in scabbard), blade 12 inches.
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Old 24th August 2017, 09:15 AM   #3
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Hi Kubur ,
Here is a dagger from my collection.
Total length 32 cm.
Blade length19 cm
Weight 400 grams.
Handle horn.
Blade of steel
Think 16 century.
Kurt
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Old 24th August 2017, 10:21 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
I do not trust the Hermitage collections descriptions, wonder how they dated it?

Here is a jambiya I got from Artzi, this type are said to be Ottoman Albanian, walrus hilt, wootz blade, 20 inches (in scabbard), blade 12 inches.
Thanks you Estrech but i'm interested only in the Turkish ottoman and the old ones (PRE 19th c.)
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Old 24th August 2017, 10:23 AM   #5
Kubur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt
Hi Kubur ,
Here is a dagger from my collection.
Total length 32 cm.
Blade length19 cm
Weight 400 grams.
Handle horn.
Blade of steel
Think 16 century.
Kurt
Thank you Kurt, it's exactly what I was looking for!!
I might be wrong but I have the feeling that I have a 16th century blade or at least a pre 19th c. blade...
Kubur
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Old 24th August 2017, 10:29 AM   #6
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Look at this one too
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Old 25th August 2017, 02:03 AM   #7
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Here is an Ottoman jambiya from Turkey proper that I once owned (stolen a few years ago ).
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:09 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Look at this one too
Kubur ,

http://turcica.museum-kassel.de/0/0/...0/katalog.html

Here you can find what you are looking for.

Kurt
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Old 25th August 2017, 10:01 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
Here is an Ottoman jambiya from Turkey proper that I once owned (stolen a few years ago ).
Thank you Battara, beautiful, what a pity that it was stolen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt
Kubur ,
http://turcica.museum-kassel.de/0/0/...0/katalog.html
Here you can find what you are looking for.
Kurt
Thank you Kurt, the Germans are so well organised!

Here is a small drawing with blades sections.
You can see that the older blades were very thick with groves or panelled inside.
Even if these blades were sharp, their main function was to stab.
You can see that later the recessed panels disappeared for a single raised panel who finally disappeared for a single central ridge as you can see on the 20th c. jambiya.
IMHO
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Old 25th August 2017, 10:52 AM   #10
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with the drawing
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Old 25th August 2017, 11:01 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Thank you Kurt, it's exactly what I was looking for!!
I might be wrong but I have the feeling that I have a 16th century blade or at least a pre 19th c. blade...
Kubur
Hi Kubur,

Is the tang supposed to look like that or was it broken off? Would be interesting to know if Ottoman daggers were constructed without proper tangs.
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Old 25th August 2017, 07:01 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Victrix
Hi Kubur,

Is the tang supposed to look like that or was it broken off? Would be interesting to know if Ottoman daggers were constructed without proper tangs.
Not cut, not broken, yes it's interesting.
For me it's a proof of the stabbing function.
You can ask to Kurt if he wants to remove his blade just to check but
I doubt that he will agree...

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Old 25th August 2017, 08:10 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Not cut, not broken, yes it's interesting.
For me it's a proof of the stabbing function.
You can ask to Kurt if he wants to remove his blade just to check but
I doubt that he will agree...

if you google rock crystal hilted daggers, where you can see the tangs, you will be surprised at how short they were and are.
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:28 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
if you google rock crystal hilted daggers, where you can see the tangs, you will be surprised at how short they were and are.
Rock crystal daggers were not built as functional daggers but more like dress/ceremonial daggers. While some of them may be capable of delivering a deadly blow, most of them would break at at the slightest impact.
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:41 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Thank you Kurt, it's exactly what I was looking for!!
I might be wrong but I have the feeling that I have a 16th century blade or at least a pre 19th c. blade...
Kubur
Hello Kubur,

Yes, it appears to be Turkish Ottoman blade, but I would be more cautious about its age.

Is it wootz?

Regards,

Marius
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Old 25th August 2017, 08:53 PM   #16
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I had this one a few years ago...
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Old 25th August 2017, 09:33 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Rock crystal daggers were not built as functional daggers but more like dress/ceremonial daggers. While some of them may be capable of delivering a deadly blow, most of them would break at at the slightest impact.
I guess daggers with strong curvature to the blade also suggest more ceremonial or decorative use although the shape could be useful in very confined space.
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Old 25th August 2017, 09:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Rock crystal daggers were not built as functional daggers but more like dress/ceremonial daggers. While some of them may be capable of delivering a deadly blow, most of them would break at at the slightest impact.
from a knife maker that makes gemstone grips:

"This ridiculous notion of fragility occurs because people think all rock is glass, or that rock is somehow too fragile for a knife handle. These same people wouldn't dare have a tile floor would they, because it might chip or crack. They wouldn't have a granite countertop because it might chip or crack. I bring up these ridiculous comparisons because those same folks would swear by the strength and durability of granite and tile, and most gemstones used on fine custom handmade knives are many times harder, tougher, and overly stronger than those materials. As I've stated before on this very site, the tip of the knife blade is the most fragile part of any knife, and if you drop it on a rock, or use it to pry, it will snap. In the several thousand gemstone handled knives I've made over thirty years, I've only had one small chip. ONE. One in two thousand. The guy dropped it just right on another piece of stone. How many micarta or wood handles would be scarred, dinged, dented, cracked, dried out, stained, scratched, gouged, scuffed, or discolored? By the way, gemstone does not scar, ding, dent, crack, dry out, stain, scratch, gouge, scuff, or discolor. In ten thousand years when the blade is nothing but dust, the bolsters too, and any resemblance to a knife has long been lost to history, the handle will look like the day it left the shop. Look to history for the answer. The longest lasting, most enduring pieces ever made in the history of mankind are made of stone."

if they were that fragile, we'd not ever come across them & they'd not command high prices.

i think you'd be surprised at how short historic tangs could be and still function as designed. odd that the ancients made do with stub and partial tang weapons well into the age of gunpowder, and the modern full tang craze came after edged weapons were no longer the primary combat weapon. how the knife is mounted onto the grip doesn't always require a long bulky tang.
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