Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 5th December 2013, 05:00 PM   #1
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 433
Default Superimposed firearms

I couldn't find to much information on superimposed firearms on this forum, so i hope i am not repetetive

Not to much information from my side for the moment, only pictures i want to share. Hopefully this will spark some discussion




Last edited by Robert : 6th December 2013 at 08:11 PM.
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2013, 05:30 PM   #2
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

The correct term is superimposed load firearms , just like the title of D.R. Baxer's standard reference work (hard to find and extremely (!) expensive - I paid 300 euro; a copy is in my own library).
P.S. I just noted it's offered at 180 at abebooks ...

The reason of course is that the loads in these guns were superimposed, not the firearms themselves.


BTW, sometimes the SEARCH button on the forum is of some help - please see my threads:


http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...perimposed+load

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...perimposed+load

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...perimposed+load



Attached please find a scheme of the superimposed load principle of a four-barreled mid-17th c. wheellock carbine, from D.R. Baxter, 1966.




Best,
m
Attached Images
     

Last edited by Matchlock : 5th December 2013 at 07:37 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2013, 05:58 PM   #3
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 433
Default

Aaaah darn (sorry ) i knew i had seen something similiar before, sorry michael
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2013, 06:56 PM   #4
Fernando K
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 423
Default

Hello:

Just to say that I think that the two arms of the beginning of the thread, are not superimposed loads, but two guns (barrel)

Fernando K
Fernando K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2013, 07:13 PM   #5
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Although I did not author this thread: exactly, Fernando K, thanks!
Of course these are locks from over-and-under-barrel guns, not from superimposed-load firearms.
Marcus?

Best,
Michael
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2013, 07:55 PM   #6
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 433
Default

correct again, ouch not a good day for me.
The multiple bullets on a row configuration is know to me, but i doubt it was used to often. I read that the bullets tended to get stuck inside the barrel?
On the other hand, i have seen replica's beeing fired without trouble. (not because they where replica's but because there is a lot of sense in the idea).

if i remember correctly (and that is pretty hard for me today apparently) i recall a firearm which used a trail of gunpowder in the middle of 2 barrels. With multiple holes in the barrel with a corresponding load of powder and bullet lined up.
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2013, 09:16 PM   #7
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Many horrible accidents must have happened when firing superimposed load guns. The tiniest mistake in the loader's concentration must have lead to a gore ...
I basically assume that it was literally impossible to flawlessly load them in the thick of a fight, so to speak ... And they of course were much too expensive and rare to voluntarily expose them to such a risk as well.


m
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2013, 11:40 AM   #8
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 433
Default

quit right indeed, especially since manpower was very cheap and even a "simple" farmer in a feudalistic society would have been able to shoot with the same accuracy as the pistol with the superimposed load (train of bullets / "roman candle" ).

Some other pictures than, quit a neat pistol, but horribly imbalanced i think (book: wheel lock firarms of the royal armouries, Craeme Rimmer, page 25)
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2013, 12:40 PM   #9
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Some twenty years ago, I handled another triple-shot superimposed-load wheellock pistol from that same series by the very same maker, preserved in as-new condition and retaining all its original bluing, in the world-famous Habsburg Collection in Vienna, while the museum was closed to the public.
It was rather ill-balanced but please remember that these actually were arquebuses and were always held with two hands, with the buttstock touching the cheek!

The date assigned by Graeme is exactly correct: ca. 1555, most probably Augsburg.

Best,
Michael
Attached Images
   
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2013, 02:44 PM   #10
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

I would like to add that the inside of the first detached wheellock mechanism posted by Marcus in this thread is for a ca. 1630 North Italian two-shot superimposed-load military carbine on the Bossi system.

I attached images of a Bossi carbine, formerly in the W. Keith Neal colln., from a Czerny's sales catalogue, and of three other superimposed-load wheellock guns from the W. Keith Neal colln., Christie's. Please mind that the flintlock musket, French, ca. 1640, obviously has severe working problems in both its locks as the cocks are not in the correct upright position for half-cock but they lean forward too much so that each flint actually touches the steel instead of standing clear off it!


Best,
Michael
Attached Images
            

Last edited by Matchlock : 6th December 2013 at 09:34 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2013, 02:47 PM   #11
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

And the description to the ca. 1640 flintlock superimposed-load musket.

m
Attached Images
 
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2013, 03:07 PM   #12
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Another image of the fine military carbine on the double-shot superimposed-load Giuliano Bossi system, sold from the W. Keith Neal colln., Christie's, 12 Dec 1997.
It fetched 15,000 Deutsche Mark, auction fees included.

m
Attached Images
  

Last edited by Matchlock : 6th December 2013 at 03:45 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th December 2013, 08:22 PM   #13
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Just an aside concerning the last picture attached in post #10:

The cock and steel of this ca. 1655-60 flintlock carbine are absolutely in the correct angle for mid-17th c. half-cock position demonstrating the malfunction of the superimposed-load flintlock gun in the above post (repeated here)!

m
Attached Images
   

Last edited by Matchlock : 11th December 2013 at 08:39 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th December 2013, 06:49 PM   #14
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 892
Default

yes, check christies Sale 9776 lot117
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th December 2013, 10:12 PM   #15
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matchlock
Just an aside concerning the last picture attached in post #10:

The cock and steel of this ca. 1655-60 flintlock carbine are absolutely in the correct angle for mid-17th c. half-cock position demonstrating the malfunction of the superimposed-load flintlock gun in the above post (repeated here)!

m




And another instance of a ca. 1645 Westfalian flintlock haquebut (wallgun), the barrel about 100 years earlier, ca. 1540, the cock and steel (frizzen) in the absolutely correct position for half- and full-cock.
From Christie's Schloss Dyck museum sale, part I, April 15, 1992, lot 48. I bought it at Christie's sale and for about ten years, it stayed in my collection.

m
Attached Images
     
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th December 2013, 08:48 PM   #16
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default A Four-Shot Superimposed-Load Military Matchlock Musket, ca. 1600-20

In the Koninklijk Leger Museum (Army Museum Brussels).

Please note the fact that - as is the case with many unusual and experimental guns! - all the serpentines are shaped and work differently! While three of them are snapping matchlocks and are released by the small, short trigger, the forward serpentine that initiates the first (topmost) shot is activated by the long tiller trigger that actually acts as a guard for the small trigger.


m
Attached Images
    
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th December 2013, 09:00 PM   #17
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default To the moderators!

On my own account, and as I pleaded in post #2 above, the main title of this thread really should in any case be altered to

Superimposed Load Firearms.

It does not make any sense the way it reads now! The loads were superimpsed, not the guns!


Thanks, and best,
Michael
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th May 2014, 03:40 PM   #18
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CSA Consulate, Rm. 101, Glos. UK: p.s. - Real Dogs Have Feathering.
Posts: 2,486
Default

not quite the same topic, but close: the superimposed load was the bane of the sergeants in a massed formation of muzzle loading muskets/rifles during volley fire.

excited soldiers would frequently forget to actually prime their weapon, and not notice they hadn't really fired a projectile, and, to maintain the 'flow' of their rank's motions, would reload a new charge, wad and ball on top of the existing one.

sergeants would, during lulls, have their squad drop their ramrods down the bore to see how much stuck out. one recruit was found (american civil war) to have had six loads in the barrel.

the sergeant would not have been amused. worming out charges is not fun. especially if you are being shot at. even worse, while being berated by an angry noncom.

i haven't decided if the recruit would have preferred to at some point in the making of the stack, to have primed and fired (and blown himself up) rather than suffer the wrath of his 3-striper.

oddly enough, the advent of self contained cartridges did not stop this effect, just reversed it a bit. recruits would forget to actually reload and would merrily recock their actions and dry-fire their way through a battle... again, if caught their sergeants would not be amused.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2017, 02:03 PM   #19
Spiridonov
Member
 
Spiridonov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Russia, Leningrad
Posts: 348
Send a message via ICQ to Spiridonov
Default

Superimposed charge drawn by Ghiberti Bonaccorso (about 1500 year)
Attached Images
 
Spiridonov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2017, 04:00 PM   #20
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,391
Default

Great catch, Alexander.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2017, 07:29 PM   #21
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,391
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
... the superimposed load was the bane of the sergeants in a massed formation of muzzle loading muskets/rifles during volley fire....excited soldiers would frequently forget to actually prime their weapon, and not notice they hadn't really fired a projectile, and, to maintain the 'flow' of their rank's motions, would reload a new charge, wad and ball on top of the existing one... one recruit was found (american civil war) to have had six loads in the barrel...

I must be repeating myself but, notwithstanding the veracity (and plausibility) of the above said, i have learnt of episodes occurred over year during the Peninsular war with a different approach in similar scenario. Large numbers of troopers were not volunteers but 'taken' from their houses to active war, including consciencious objectors. So what the late did in battle was, instead of actually shooting the gun, only repeatedly load it, to give the sergeant the idea that, with such gesture, they were acting 'normaly'; hence the same superimposed result.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:39 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.