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Old 3rd November 2016, 01:44 PM   #1
Evgeny_K
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Question Sword belt hook

I had recently acquired interesting sword belt hook made of bronze, found not far from Smolensk (Russia). Now I'm trying to date it.
Were such "accessories" widespread in European armies? In what period of time?
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Old 7th November 2016, 06:48 AM   #2
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any thoughts?
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Old 7th November 2016, 11:38 AM   #3
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Hi Evgeny,
Personally i had never seen such kind of device, nor i am certain how it goes. Is it to introduce the scabbard into that slot and hang the hook on the belt ... in what position ? Sorry for ignorance .
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Old 7th November 2016, 01:58 PM   #4
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Hi Fernando!
Here are some pics (I'm not sure if it drawn correctly):
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Old 7th November 2016, 01:59 PM   #5
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This, if I am not mistaken, the Afghan belt with various accessories
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Old 7th November 2016, 02:00 PM   #6
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Italian (?) circa 1450-1500 (??) hook (picture from the web)
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Old 7th November 2016, 02:28 PM   #7
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Oh, i see now.
Most interesting; thank you for the enlightening pictures.
Certainly an old example, being bronze and so stylized.
I wonder if now some member comes up with comments on it.
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Old 7th November 2016, 02:28 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Hi Evgeny,
Personally i had never seen such kind of device, nor i am certain how it goes. Is it to introduce the scabbard into that slot and hang the hook on the belt ... in what position ? Sorry for ignorance .



I wouldn't equate the term 'ignorance' with you Fernando! and I have to say this unusual item is something I have never seen nor thought of!
It is curious that one of these is notably present but vacant in the great illustration of the individual posted by Eugeny. So what in the world would b placed on these hooks?

Even the assemblage of kit in the next illustration does not reveal what kind of accoutrement would be hung on this as far as I can see.

Great research though Eugeny , in finding that Italian example. Clearly a well established form of item long in use so it will be great to learn more on them. Thank you!
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Old 7th November 2016, 03:15 PM   #9
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Just for the fun ... a fantasy.

.
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Old 7th November 2016, 05:40 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Just for the fun ... a fantasy.
.


yep
I suppose that this hook was designed to dismounted horseman could fasten his sword on it
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Old 7th November 2016, 06:37 PM   #11
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So ...


.
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Old 7th November 2016, 07:47 PM   #12
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yes. the length of the two straps is optimised for horseback, when you dismount you hang the upper ring with the shorter strap off the hook on the belt. most US army/navy belts have a built in brass hook for this purpose. jeb stuart (CSA cavalry) made a lot of money by selling a brass device with a hook for suspending your sabre by placing the hook over your belt from underneath the belt). the two leather straps were fastened to slots at the base, which included a hook such as we speak about here. it was designed so a gentleman officer could more easily remove his sword before dining, and rapidly replace it after. the chain hanger is for a us sword with only one scabbard ring. the hook is facing staright out at you.
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Old 7th November 2016, 08:21 PM   #13
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Wayne, outstanding!
There you have it.....its a cinch hook for sword carry dismounted.
JEB Stuart! and Confederate cavalry, brilliant
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Old 7th November 2016, 09:49 PM   #14
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There recently was a similar piece in renaissance style described as a key hook for holding keys at the belt:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/112184098854...K%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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Old 8th November 2016, 12:21 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AHorsa
There recently was a similar piece in renaissance style described as a key hook for holding keys at the belt:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/112184098854...K%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


ebay descriptions can be quite fanciful. i get some good items that mislabelled, and do not show up in most collectors searches. one of my favourites was a burmese presentatation dha with a silver inlaid blade ebay called an egyptian machete, got it for under a tenner. i told the vendor what it really was, she said her idiot son had told her that was what he thought it was.
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Old 8th November 2016, 07:02 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AHorsa
There recently was a similar piece in renaissance style described as a key hook for holding keys at the belt:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/112184098854...K%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


I'm not sure that this description is correct
(EUR 233,00 is too much for "key holder" )
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Old 8th November 2016, 09:22 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AHorsa
There recently was a similar piece in renaissance style described as a key hook for holding keys at the belt:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/112184098854...K%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


A picture for later reference when the ebay link is gone.
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Old 8th November 2016, 10:53 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Wayne, outstanding!
There you have it .....its a cinch hook for sword carry dismounted .., brilliant

What ? Wasn't that assumption previously approached (even sketched) ? I want a lollipop too .
Here is the latest Portuguese solution; one from my stock.

.
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Old 8th November 2016, 11:04 AM   #19
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brits use that form now on sam brown belts. straight sword scabbard goes into a frog which has two angled straps that buckle on to the two square brass loops either side of the hook, allowing the sword to hang vertically. can be raised off the floor & hung on the hook by a loop on the back of the frog. little fiddly to remove for dinner, you can slide the scabbard out of the frog.
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Old 2nd December 2016, 05:55 PM   #20
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This past year I purchased an Afghan belt assembly which included one of these hooks. I seem to recall a discussion in the Ethno Forum as to the primary use for this hook. There were several speculations, but nothing really conclusive.
It seems the purpose was to carry a sword, suspended from the top ring of the scabbard, while on horseback. I can't really think of any other use, other than a relationship to the sword.
I have seen a couple of these hooks pop up on Ebay. But the sellers want too much for them.

Rick
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Old 15th December 2016, 05:24 PM   #21
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Thank you, Rick!
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Old 3rd February 2017, 09:38 PM   #22
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Hook for hanging the sword. The first half of the IX century
Archaeological finds in Gnezdovo ( settlement of the second half IX XI centuries near modern Smolensk, with mixed Scandinavian and Slavic population)http://imgur.com/r/norse/NLGn6
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Old 4th February 2017, 10:46 AM   #23
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Most interesting, Evgeny.
... as so are some of the other artifacts found, by the way:

.
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Old 30th May 2017, 02:11 PM   #24
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another hook from Russia
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Old 30th May 2017, 03:43 PM   #25
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One i would like to have
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Old 30th May 2017, 05:17 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
A picture for later reference when the ebay link is gone.


Interesting. I have seen a hook like this for sale somewhere (can't recall where) when it was described as a carbine hook for bandoleer worn across the chest by cavalry.
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