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Old 4th June 2017, 04:20 PM   #1
stelio
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Default Greek flintlock rifles

Two flintlocks rifles from Greece, "karıofėlı" 19th century.
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Old 4th June 2017, 04:30 PM   #2
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Hi Stelio,

As always your collection is just so amazing!

Question:

a kariofėlı is a Greek rasak?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...highlight=rasak
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...highlight=rasak

The two guns are similiar the only difference is the lock, the Greeks used the European flintlock and the Albanians used the Ottoman miquelet lock...
Am I right or wrong?


Kubur
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Old 4th June 2017, 05:58 PM   #3
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Hello Kubur
Thank you very much for your good words my friend. I would say it is the same type rifle and only the name of the area changes.
The mechanism is often the same in both of us but in most Greek we find the European type mechanism.
The differences are clear in the designs and the decoration in weapons.Depending on the size and some small differences in the design, Greek rasak have different names.

Stelios
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Last edited by stelio : 5th June 2017 at 12:03 AM.
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Old 4th June 2017, 06:29 PM   #4
fernando
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Very nice guns, stelio .
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Old 4th June 2017, 07:05 PM   #5
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Thank you Fernando ☺
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Old 4th June 2017, 07:23 PM   #6
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Hi Stelio,
I agree with other comments above. VERY nice guns.
Stu
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Old 4th June 2017, 08:16 PM   #7
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Thank you Stu!!!☺
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Old 4th June 2017, 08:34 PM   #8
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Hi Stelio.

YES!! Those are VERY nice Greek long guns. And appear in great condition.
My understanding is the only difference between the terms Kariofili and Rasak was depending on the Region of Greece you were standing in at the moment. Am I wrong ?

A question: Does the top gun actually have a BRASS lockplate ? Or is it brass covered ?

The Greeks did seem to prefer the traditional flintlock over the miquelet lock. And most I've seen do seem to confirm this. Although I have seen a few with the tradional Balkan style miquelet lock heavily favored on Albanian guns. The first Link posted by Kubur above shows a Greek long gun with a Bulgarian style miquelet lock (also Balkan made). Interesting. That's the only one I've seen using that lock pattern.

I still need one of these Greek long guns (and a pistol also) for my collection. They seem to evade me when they come up for sale.
But I'll eventually secure one.

Again, great looking guns Stelio.

Rick
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Old 4th June 2017, 11:22 PM   #9
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Hello Rick and thank you! I hope you quickly get one in your collection my friend.
The word, however, that was throughout the Greek territory was a carriophile/ kariofili (καριοφίλι) and all the rest were just to stand out as I said above all the small things that they had to build each one.Rasak would say it was the word used in northern Balkans and not to Greece. Most Greek weapons bring European flintlocks but also a miqulete mechanism.
I think a special example of balkan rasak is the Bulgarian that type rasak with Bulgarian muqulet lock is very rare.
You are right, the first one has the bronze plate as well as the point that receives the powder.

stelios
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Old 10th June 2017, 01:05 PM   #10
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Hi Stelio.

OK. Thanks for your explanation of Kariofili versus Rasak. I've always wondered. LOL
That brass lockplate is also very interesting. Usually, you only see this feature on some special order European pistols or the occassional Amerian Kentucky/Pennsylvania style rifles. I've only seen one Balkan pistol with a brass lockplate. So this has to be a rare feature for this style of Greek long gun.
Again, two great looking pieces. By the way, thanks for the photos!! I'll add these to my library.

Rick
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Old 10th June 2017, 01:45 PM   #11
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Hello Rick!!!!
Thank you very much my friend .
It has been observed that many Greek weapons have been altered in the second half of the 19th century by American flintlock mechanisms. Many mechanisms since the end of the American civil war have come to Greece and have taken the place of the old mechanism. So what many weapons will we see is much older than the mechanism they have.Do not forget that these weapons in their area have remained stable for many years.
There are cases where kariofilia/ rasak have a mechanism
Percussion locks and no flintlock.I would also like your opinion on another post for a leather Ottoman case, knowing your interest and your knowledge of Ottoman and Balkan weapons.

thank you


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Old 10th June 2017, 02:13 PM   #12
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and here comes a Greek gun with iron mounts around lock and the stock, but with brass barrel rings out of my collection.
corrado26
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Old 11th June 2017, 10:36 AM   #13
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Hi Corrado26.
Very nice your karıofil and in very good condition,quite unusual in the designs decorations.
Congratulations.

Best

Stelios
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Old 11th June 2017, 12:18 PM   #14
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Hi Corrado,
I agree with Stelios, very nice and very strange rifle.
I have an idea about his provenance but it's may be crazy.
I prefer to let the others comment first...
Best,
Kubur
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Old 11th June 2017, 12:57 PM   #15
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Hi Coorado.

What a great looking and interesting Greek long gun. I really like how the carving on the butt stock blend so well with the rest of the gun decoration.
It appears to have come with it's original wood tompin, used to keep the muzzle/barrel dry while carrying during foul weather. Very neat!!! Usually these type of accessories end up being lost over the years.
I'm not quite sure from the photos, but the lock appears to have a "roller" on the frizzen spring (?) Can you confirm this ?
Again, a wonderful example from your collection.

Rick
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Old 11th June 2017, 02:13 PM   #16
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Yes, the lock has a roller frizzen
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Old 11th June 2017, 07:51 PM   #17
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Very nice comments Rick.
First time I see a barrel cover for this gun.I know they protected them with some kind of cover or cloth but I have never seen them before. Corrado i would like to ask you if you have done some maintenance on its wooden parts? The iron parts know that they are very good metals where with a little oil they clean faster than the bronze.
Again, congratulations.
the best
Stelios
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Old 12th June 2017, 05:36 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickystl
It appears to have come with it's original wood tompin, used to keep the muzzle/barrel dry while carrying during foul weather. Very neat!!! Usually these type of accessories end up being lost over the years.
Rick


Thank you Rick, I didn't know about these things. I guess they can appear if we know they exist...
OK I have a question: do you think that the barrel bands are original?
And if they are, why are they turned upside down?
Thanks

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Old 12th June 2017, 08:03 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stelio
Corrado i would like to ask you if you have done some maintenance on its wooden parts?



No, I have done nothing to the wooden stock, I just cleaned the iron and brass parts. By the way: The barrel bands are not upside down, their shape is so that they cannot be installed inversely - their longer underside makes something like a funnel for the ramrod.
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Old 12th June 2017, 08:45 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado26
No, I have done nothing to the wooden stock, I just cleaned the iron and brass parts. By the way: The barrel bands are not upside down, their shape is so that they cannot be installed inversely - their longer underside makes something like a funnel for the ramrod.
corrado26


Good, so now the only guns with this kind of barrel bands are found in North Africa, especially in Algeria.
Lot of people from the Balkans (including Greece) worked in North Africa from Algeria to Egypt.
Would it possible that your Greek rifle was done for a Greek mercenary but in North Africa??
Is it an Italian stamp on your barrel?
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Old 12th June 2017, 12:19 PM   #21
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Thank you Corrado.
I asked you why in the photo the deep patterns seem to have the black color of the time while the other points are clear.
As Kubur rightly said the barrel rings are upside down,
the rings to hold the barrel always go with the big point on the upper side.

Best

Stelios
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Old 12th June 2017, 12:38 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stelio
the rings to hold the barrel always go with the big point on the upper side.


thank you, convinced!
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Old 17th June 2017, 02:26 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado26
Yes, the lock has a roller frizzen
corrado26

OK. I thought it looked like a roller. A late flintlock feature. Very neat. You don't ofter see this on Ethno guns.

Rick
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Old 17th June 2017, 02:28 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado26
thank you, convinced!
corrado26

Yes, the barrel bands should be positioned as mentioned above. Easy fix.

Rick
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