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Old 3rd March 2017, 11:55 AM   #1
Kubur
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Default From where???

From where???

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Old 3rd March 2017, 12:38 PM   #2
mariusgmioc
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Shotel sword from Ethiopia?!

Albeit the hilt is rather atypical.

Exceptional workmanship!
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Old 3rd March 2017, 02:36 PM   #3
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I am also reminded of a Black Sea Laz Bichaq Yataghan
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Old 3rd March 2017, 03:31 PM   #4
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There are similar examples ( of lower quality) in the collection of the Russian Ethnographic Museum in St. Petersburg.
Allegedly, brought from Kazakhstan and, also allegedly, their local name is Shoy.

I also saw the same construction defined as Kurdish. Or Armenian.

Unlike Trabzonian Laz Bichagi, there is no documentary/photographic evidence of their attribution/provenance/dating.

If Laz Bicagi is an ergonomic nightmare, these buggers are simply beyond words...
I find it hard to believe that anyone in his right mind would be willing to be armed with THAT:-)
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Old 3rd March 2017, 03:47 PM   #5
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Thank you all
Yes Black sea Armenian yatagan
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Old 3rd March 2017, 04:34 PM   #6
Oliver Pinchot
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That piece sold through Auctions Imperial in 2012.
The description addresses the unusual motifs on the grip.

http://auctionsimperial.hibid.com/l...=0&ref=lot-list
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Old 3rd March 2017, 05:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
I find it hard to believe that anyone in his right mind would be willing to be armed with THAT:-)

Why is that Ariel? These shotel-style blades were designed for specific usage, mostly to be able to strike around shields if i am not mistaken. Have you seen any instructional videos of this weapon in action for a better understanding of how it was wielded?
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Old 3rd March 2017, 10:05 PM   #8
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Well David, having held many Laz Bicagi and shotels, as well as one of those monstrosities, I can assure you that wielding it effectively is just as realistic as using a fork with haphazardly bent tines. Perhaps,- just perhaps:-),- that was the reason why this construction was never adopted outside its very limited areals.
At your suggestion I have looked at the "instructional videos" on YouTube. Looks very good against an opponent who doesn't move his shield even an inch and never uses his own normal sword. Would look even better against a punching bag.

African swords with rare exceptions are artistically fascinating but practically not very useful.
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Old 4th March 2017, 03:38 PM   #9
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Hi Kubur,
Cenrtainly a strange one, but to me, a facinating and unique piece. As a proponent of fasion over function as origin of weapon shapes, I am not bothered by apparent lack of funionality, though this one stretches this concept to the limit.
What I find more interesting is the decoration. First, it clearly shows Persian Qajar influnce, like also the all-steel construction. As far as I know, the Persian Qajars ceased Armenia to the Russian Empire in 1828. So how old is this sword?
Second, the figure on the pommel is quite unusual and impressive, giving the whole piece a strong symbolic character. This, together with impractical shape, suggest that a ceremonial piece, but not of military, Christian or Islamic character. Any ideas on what the story is behind this misterious piece?
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Old 4th March 2017, 04:41 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motan
Hi Kubur,
Cenrtainly a strange one, but to me, a facinating and unique piece. As a proponent of fasion over function as origin of weapon shapes, I am not bothered by apparent lack of funionality, though this one stretches this concept to the limit.
What I find more interesting is the decoration. First, it clearly shows Persian Qajar influnce, like also the all-steel construction. As far as I know, the Persian Qajars ceased Armenia to the Russian Empire in 1828. So how old is this sword?
Second, the figure on the pommel is quite unusual and impressive, giving the whole piece a strong symbolic character. This, together with impractical shape, suggest that a ceremonial piece, but not of military, Christian or Islamic character. Any ideas on what the story is behind this misterious piece?


Hi Motan
Well i got the infos on an Armenian site, but the sword was sold by Oliver.
I don't believe that these kind of swords were used against shields as it was said, your oponent can move too! Used for fight maybe? The hilt seems to be in brass. The character looks Qajar but look at the characters on some Greek pistols they are almost the same. They are just simple representations of human beings. I think this decoration is Armenian. But the blade is decorated in a Turkish Ottoman style to me. Overall Black sea Armenian is perfect for me.
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Old 4th March 2017, 06:47 PM   #11
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These aren't thrusting weapons. They are a variety of saber which allows
them to be used effectively for a drawcut in close quarters on foot.
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Old 5th March 2017, 03:09 AM   #12
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This is an example of the very unusual swords from Transcaucasian regions (as has been discussed) and indirectly aligned with the recurved sabres now classified as 'Laz bichagi', which first became somewhat known in our arms study community back in the 90s.
In those times, while studying Caucasian arms I found an article titled, "The Origins of the Shasha", by Triikman and Jacobsen, published by the Danish Arms Society in 1941. In this most interesting article (after great difficulty in having it translated), some of these most unusual swords were included (as well as the Laz bichagi, but termed Kurdish-Armenian yataghan).

During considerable research I found that the Kurdish Armenian yataghans had later been described in "Schwert Degen Sabel" ( Seifert, 1962). In contacting Gerhard Seifert, he told me that he had gained his classification for this Kurdish Armenian yataghan from his 'mentor', Holgar Jacobsen.
I further found that the unusually, and dramatically curved edged weapons, such as the one posted here, were reviewed in a very obscure article, "A Magyar Faji Vandor Pa'sa" by J. Zichy, Budapest, 1897. The author had travelled in these and Caucasian regions in obtaining his data.

These groupings of sometimes radically parabolic and recurved bladed swords (I believe the term 'kardok' was used) were illustrated and described as primarily Transcaucasian weapons. I had a copy of the illustrated drawings and captions only, sent to me by a colleague in France.

It seems that most of the examples shown in these articles were provenance from Trabzon and Erzerum, if I recall correctly .

Just thought this might help if others are researching the weapons of these regions.

Interesting notes on the Ethiopian shotel. It seems that Christopher Spring had noted something about the reach of these sickle type swords around the shield, which is obviously highly disputed. To me such a maneuver seems contrived, and as Oliver has well noted, these kinds of blades are intended for a draw cut type attack. The Ethiopian chiefs and many warriors were still using these in the Italian invasion in 1935, where their enemy were not using shields.
It would seem that the Transcaucasian swords, like these, were likely used in the same manner with draw cut .
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Old 5th March 2017, 03:08 PM   #13
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An often-overlooked theory regarding these weapons, which is certainly as plausible as that which states that they were designed for use around shields, is one in which a soldier in perplexing doubt regarding his orders during battle might signal his commander by raising the weapon, holding it perpendicular to the ground and orienting the point to his right, thus:
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Old 5th March 2017, 03:15 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
An often-overlooked theory regarding these weapons, which is certainly as plausible as that which states that they were designed for use around shields, is one in which a soldier in perplexing doubt regarding his orders during battle might signal his commander by raising the weapon, holding it perpendicular to the ground and orienting the point to his right, thus:



Now that's one I had never heard, nor thought of Oliver!!! but indeed is quite parallel in plausibility to the over the shield hook cut.
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Old 6th March 2017, 01:09 PM   #15
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Hahahaha !!!!
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Old 6th March 2017, 02:57 PM   #16
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The "bald guy" reminds me of souvenir Qajar Jinn maces.
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